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  1. #1
    Player
    Grebeny's Avatar
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    Rude Delahayne
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    Odin
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    Ninja Lv 100
    They do guides because people need them, if the toys give you out the battle, nobody will watch their guides. And if you check the streams of Xeno and other hardcore players as him, their views jump from 1k to 15k when there is new content that people want to see cleared. When you have more and more tools to clear it day one before guide and you will not need to figure it out blind, people will not go to watch them, but just go and clear. And don't forget no matter if you like or not specific streamer, this is business model. Streamers don't put "good job" comments as food on the table. Videos with high view count may help better with the food.

    I agree for ultimates, so far I can't find full group of 8 people crazy enough to clear them entirely blind. I personally clear content only in blind, so if there is no people for something, I just avoid it until I find. But I am looking forward to it, there are few people that started to feel the hype for it.

    Something unrelated that I noticed. Stop the fake news. There is not a single streamer that was banned for using dps meter. Even Xeno, Zepla and Arthars agreed all banned streamers were using cheats after they saw more detailed info about what mods were used by banned streamers. SE do not ban for mass reports because they do this manually. For unaware souls, mass report ban works when it is bot enforcing the ban. The guy that became popular in Japan was banned once before for using cheating mods and it was not huge surprise for taking another one for it, it had nothing to do with him being massively reported because he is white in Japan as many tried to "fake news". My concern and all the points I explained down are related with possibility of SE to enforce their rules.

    Right now the arrogance of people that use insane amount of mods is in "they can't know if you do" because Yoshi said they don't want to add anti cheat, but that was not solid statement as it will never happen, this entirely depends on the community. At the same time way before anti cheats were a thing devs were just adding "traps". I believe system like this is used against mods in FF because there are really not a lot of them, but pretty much it works by the devs dowloading targeted mod and look how it interacts with the game. They find interactions that can't be achieved in normal play and add code to check if those actions are performed, this can be done both on game files and only client side stuff and server side changes. And SE may start doing this at any point if they decide specific part of the communiy crossed the line too far, as in my opinion they already did.
    (1)

  2. #2
    Player
    Saraide's Avatar
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    Jun 2021
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    Saraide Derosa
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    Odin
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    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Grebeny View Post
    They do guides because people need them, if the toys give you out the battle, nobody will watch their guides. And if you check the streams of Xeno and other hardcore players as him, their views jump from 1k to 15k when there is new content that people want to see cleared. When you have more and more tools to clear it day one before guide and you will not need to figure it out blind, people will not go to watch them, but just go and clear. And don't forget no matter if you like or not specific streamer, this is business model. Streamers don't put "good job" comments as food on the table. Videos with high view count may help better with the food.
    Now that is just straight up false. We have guides down to content like dungeons and those do get views. Streamers dont need to be the best at the game, they need to make watching them entertaining in some way. It's a community experience and the more people get into the harder content, the more are potentially interested in watching a streamer do the content they also want to do. Do you think when people have cleared a specific fight they will never watch any streamer who tries to clear that content? As a streamer you do not even need to be good at all at the game, you just need to make it entertaining for the audience.

    According to your logic the popularity of guide content should be on a massive downward spiral which is not the case.
    (1)

  3. #3
    Player
    Grebeny's Avatar
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    Rude Delahayne
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    Odin
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    Ninja Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Saraide View Post
    Now that is just straight up false...
    There are many streamers that are popular because they know how to entertain the audience like Josh Strife, Asmongold or Zepla. But other streamers like Xeno and Arthars build reputation by being good at the game. This is the reason Arthars stream had 15k+ viewers when he was on world first ultimate and 6k when another group cleared the ultiamte. Xeno was not part of world first community and his stream was a lot smaller, even if he was one of the best warriors in FF way before the specific events made him popular.

    Both Arthars and Xeno reacted super defensive when they heard people are banned for using mods, but after they saw more information about it, they moved backward from their first statements. They are not stupid and realize if people use mods to cheat world first offstream, their own streams are going to be hurt directly, I mean, numbers show it 18k one hour before world first on last ultimate is quite higher number from 8k twenty minutes after and 6k one hour later.
    (2)

  4. #4
    Player
    Saraide's Avatar
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    Saraide Derosa
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    Odin
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    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Grebeny View Post
    There are many streamers that are popular because they know how to entertain the audience like Josh Strife, Asmongold or Zepla. But other streamers like Xeno and Arthars build reputation by being good at the game. This is the reason Arthars stream had 15k+ viewers when he was on world first ultimate and 6k when another group cleared the ultiamte. Xeno was not part of world first community and his stream was a lot smaller, even if he was one of the best warriors in FF way before the specific events made him popular.

    Both Arthars and Xeno reacted super defensive when they heard people are banned for using mods, but after they saw more information about it, they moved backward from their first statements. They are not stupid and realize if people use mods to cheat world first offstream, their own streams are going to be hurt directly, I mean, numbers show it 18k one hour before world first on last ultimate is quite higher number from 8k twenty minutes after and 6k one hour later.
    Their reputation of being good at the game is not harmed by other people cheating, it can only be harmed by themselves cheating. If you think neverland only got their world first through cheating and not through their own skill you are hard coping. Obviously once the special event is over, special event viewership will drop.
    (1)

  5. #5
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    3,649
    Character
    Kurenai Tenshi
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Grebeny View Post
    They do guides because people need them, if the toys give you out the battle, nobody will watch their guides. And if you check the streams of Xeno and other hardcore players as him, their views jump from 1k to 15k when there is new content that people want to see cleared. When you have more and more tools to clear it day one before guide and you will not need to figure it out blind, people will not go to watch them, but just go and clear. And don't forget no matter if you like or not specific streamer, this is business model. Streamers don't put "good job" comments as food on the table. Videos with high view count may help better with the food.
    You do realize players like Xeno clear Ultimate long before any of these programs even work, yes? His viewership spikes on new content release because it's new and players enjoy watching him. Third party plugins and the like won't impact this whatsoever because the whole point of Week 1 or WF racing is how quickly they clear not simply showcasing the content itself. Most people watching his stream either can't raid themselves, have no desire to or already have statics that simply aren't running 12+ hour days. Hence why they watch, instead. Plugins have nothing to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grebeny View Post
    I agree for ultimates, so far I can't find full group of 8 people crazy enough to clear them entirely blind. I personally clear content only in blind, so if there is no people for something, I just avoid it until I find. But I am looking forward to it, there are few people that started to feel the hype for it.
    Which isn't all that surprising. A lot of people don't want to invest the sheer amount of time blind prog demands. Or they simply don't find it fun. To each their own and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grebeny View Post
    Something unrelated that I noticed. Stop the fake news. There is not a single streamer that was banned for using dps meter. Even Xeno, Zepla and Arthars agreed all banned streamers were using cheats after they saw more detailed info about what mods were used by banned streamers. SE do not ban for mass reports because they do this manually. For unaware souls, mass report ban works when it is bot enforcing the ban. The guy that became popular in Japan was banned once before for using cheating mods and it was not huge surprise for taking another one for it, it had nothing to do with him being massively reported because he is white in Japan as many tried to "fake news". My concern and all the points I explained down are related with possibility of SE to enforce their rules.
    You should really take your own advice. First and foremost, only two streamers were banned. Neither one of them were cheating. They used a UI plugin which put abilities timers on the party list, something Yoshida has even said they're considering doing themselves. If you're seriously going to call putting a timer under Nascent Flash on the party list some massive gameplay cheat, well, you may want to scroll up and see what actual cheating looks like. Nevertheless, both were banned entirely due to report bombing. We know this because 5chan literally orchestrated it to "see whether SE was serious." In the case of the more recent example, practically everyone has denounced that as cheating. There's a massive difference between the JP streamers adding buff timers to their party list and someone who had a mini-map which displayed how to execute every single mechanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grebeny View Post
    Right now the arrogance of people that use insane amount of mods is in "they can't know if you do" because Yoshi said they don't want to add anti cheat, but that was not solid statement as it will never happen, this entirely depends on the community. At the same time way before anti cheats were a thing devs were just adding "traps". I believe system like this is used against mods in FF because there are really not a lot of them, but pretty much it works by the devs dowloading targeted mod and look how it interacts with the game. They find interactions that can't be achieved in normal play and add code to check if those actions are performed, this can be done both on game files and only client side stuff and server side changes. And SE may start doing this at any point if they decide specific part of the communiy crossed the line too far, as in my opinion they already did.
    This is some tinfoil hat nonsense right here. The devs have never added "traps" or done anything of the sort. If they did, maybe they'd actually catch the multitude of bots destroying the crafting aspect of the game. Nevertheless, that isn't how developers work because it wouldn't be efficient. You're assuming these third party programs wouldn't be able to detect changes to the the very code they hook into to operate. Even on the assumption they couldn't, which is a massive assumption, it takes just a single person being banned for the programmers to immediately work on an update to get around it.

    Nonetheless, it's not arrogance but simple pragmatism. Banning third party programs like mods, ACT and the like isn't cost efficient for SE. They will lose a sizable amount of money while gaining absolutely nothing for it. Hence why a certain website has been around for nearly a decade now.
    (5)
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
    "The silence is your answer."


  6. #6
    Player
    Grebeny's Avatar
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    Rude Delahayne
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    Odin
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    Ninja Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    Xeno clear Ultimate long before any of these programs even work, yes?
    Bagel got banned for using telegraphs for boss attacks that were not suppose to be there. Way before Xeno cleared, Bagel group was world first in prog and all others were watching mechanics from his stream. So some of the tools already work on day one. The streamer from japan and the World first youtuber had addon showing them when they can start moving during cast and addon to see numbers they are not suppose in party list.
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    They used a UI plugin which put abilities timers on the party list, something Yoshida has even said they're considering doing themselves.
    Yoshida never said such a thing. What was written in his note is that they will look at the third party tools used by community and evaluate what they may add to discourage usage of those tools. This specific addon was not mentioned in any way by his statement, they never stated they may add those numbers to the party list or they will implement any of the mods, the streamers were banned for. For example they added new sounds on specific mechanics to discourage players from using auto call bots, did they added auto call bots when they wanted to discourage players from using them?
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    Tdevs have never added "traps" or done anything of the sort.
    Fast example. They implemented code to catch up on people that fake not being afk by using forward, backward macro on their keyboard when servers were overwhelming and nobody wanted to be DCed for AFK. The "dungeon bots" are almost extinct species, and if you played during HS or SB you would know what I am talking about. For crafting they need to press one button on a simple macro that maybe makes it too complicated, or we don't complain about it enough to make them take actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    Banning third party programs like mods, ACT and the like isn't cost efficient for SE. They will lose a sizable amount of money while gaining absolutely nothing for it.
    This mods are not allowed in first place, to be banned. In the last two days we saw around 7 really toxic communications both ingame and in discord related to ACT/FFlogs. You may not see it personally, but people get frustrated and stop playing the game because of it. For huge portion of the players, the selling point for this game was there is none or at least is reduced to an absolute minimum of this behavior. For sure SE already are losing money because people see the same bevaior they ran away from. BTW go back to first streams of Asmongold, even for him that was a one of the big selling points of FF XIV.
    Just imagine if the NSFW mods generate a pedo scandal, as George Cacioppo knows pretty well, Sony have zero tollerance for it and may remove the entire FF from their platform. No money lost at all.
    (1)
    Last edited by Grebeny; 08-05-2022 at 01:22 AM.

  7. #7
    Player
    Raoabolic's Avatar
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    Nov 2016
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    Bastok
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    Raogrimm Ironfist
    World
    Coeurl
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    Fisher Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Grebeny View Post
    Just imagine if the NSFW mods generate a pedo scandal, as George Cacioppo knows pretty well, Sony have zero tollerance for it and may remove the entire FF from their platform. No money lost at all.
    Let's be real, Sony is just looking to axe anime/Japanese games from it's platform since they moved HQ. It would be better for the game in the long run if they just shook off the baggage that is Sony, imo.
    (0)

  8. #8
    Player
    Grebeny's Avatar
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    Rude Delahayne
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    Odin
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    Ninja Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Raoabolic View Post
    Let's be real, Sony is just looking to axe anime/Japanese games from it's platform since they moved HQ. It would be better for the game in the long run if they just shook off the baggage that is Sony, imo.
    The only game that in anyway proves your point is the censorship in DMC. But capcom confirmed they decided to add this censorship on their own, they were never asked to do so by Sony in any way. Every other example, sorry, I saw the things and it is disgusting other platforms allow it.
    (0)

  9. #9
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    Kurenai Tenshi
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    Cactuar
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    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Grebeny View Post
    Bagel got banned for using telegraphs for boss attacks that were not suppose to be there. Way before Xeno cleared, Bagel group was world first in prog and all others were watching mechanics from his stream. So some of the tools already work on day one. The streamer from japan and the World first youtuber had addon showing them when they can start moving during cast and addon to see numbers they are not suppose in party list.
    No, he wasn't. There weren't even telegraphed programs available at that point. He was banned for using a UI plugin, the very one I mentioned. You have no idea what you're talking about. The telegraphed programs are a recent thing which essentially show the mechanics for you. They aren't what Bagel and Hiiro for banned for back in May. Both were using the aforementioned plugin and one had triggers. You can debate all you fancy on if triggers are cheating but adding numbers underneath buffs isn't. That's absurd. Against the ToS? Absolutely. They shouldn't have streamed it. That's on them. It isn't cheating though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grebeny View Post
    Yoshida never said such a thing. What was written in his note is that they will look at the third party tools used by community and evaluate what they may add to discourage usage of those tools. This specific addon was not mentioned in any way by his statement, they never stated they may add those numbers to the party list or they will implement any of the mods, the streamers were banned for. For example they added new sounds on specific mechanics to discourage players from using auto call bots, did they added auto call bots when they wanted to discourage players from using them?
    Yes, he did. He specifically talked about overhauling the UI and adding elements from some of the more popular plugins. Which is precisely what Bagel and Hiiro were using. He didn't name the actual plugin for obvious reasons but for those who know of or even use it, it's fairly obvious which one he was referencing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grebeny View Post
    Fast example. They implemented code to catch up on people that fake not being afk by using forward, backward macro on their keyboard when servers were overwhelming and nobody wanted to be DCed for AFK. The "dungeon bots" are almost extinct species, and if you played during HS or SB you would know what I am talking about. For crafting they need to press one button on a simple macro that maybe makes it too complicated, or we don't complain about it enough to make them take actions.
    ... what are you on about? They did no such thing. There were two plugins available immediately after they announced removing the AFK dodging people were doing by clicking market boards or opening their HUDs. They never touched either one of them despite both working by essentially masking key commands to trick the timer into thinking you pressed a button. The dungeon bots are less prevalent now because SE removed the gil drops. Instead, they've made their homes in map dungeons and Eureka. We've even had several threads about how Pyros is infected with bunny bots. Guess what SE has done about it? Absolutely nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grebeny View Post
    This mods are not allowed in first place, to be banned. In the last two days we saw around 7 really toxic communications both ingame and in discord related to ACT/FFlogs. You may not see it personally, but people get frustrated and stop playing the game because of it. For huge portion of the players, the selling point for this game was there is none or at least is reduced to an absolute minimum of this behavior. For sure SE already are losing money because people see the same bevaior they ran away from. BTW go back to first streams of Asmongold, even for him that was a one of the big selling points of FF XIV.
    Just imagine if the NSFW mods generate a pedo scandal, as George Cacioppo knows pretty well, Sony have zero tollerance for it and may remove the entire FF from their platform. No money lost at all.
    No, it isn't. Most players don't actually care about third party tools because it doesn't impact them whatsoever. The vast majority are coming in for the story, social aspects and whatnot. If that weren't the case, SE would have banned FFlogs and ACT a decade ago when they were first release. They never have despite the former gaining so much prominence in the raid scene it impacts the meta more than even the dev team. Don't believe me? Selfish jobs were never an actual problem in Stormblood. FFlogs made them one because bringing one meant actively hurting your ranking. Hence why White Mages everywhere were constantly asked to play Astro. That changed in Shadowbringers when they introduced rDPS/aDPS. Mods have created a scandal already with Ryne. Guess what? SE never did anything about them.

    At this point in time, the estimated number of players using third party tools exceeds 300k based on just unique downloads. SE isn't attracting anywhere near enough players to replace the sheer number they would lose to offset banning them all wholesale. Hence why they never have.
    (5)
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
    "The silence is your answer."


  10. #10
    Player
    Grebeny's Avatar
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    Rude Delahayne
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    Odin
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    Ninja Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    No, he wasn't. There weren't even telegraphed programs available at that point.
    Straight lie, here is zepla talking very specifically after he was banned and showing the telegraph mod: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hgr8W03Tk0
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    Yes, he did. He specifically talked about overhauling the UI and adding elements from some of the more popular plugins.
    Again you put words he didn't said and clearly know that because "we know what he is talking about" is very different from "he said he is adding it".

    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    ... what are you on about? They did no such thing. There were two plugins available immediately after they announced removing the AFK dodging people...
    Another straight lie, a friend of mine was using those to escape AFK bans, and both of them were blocked. There were other ways people found to avoid those two and it is even in one of the weekly update letters (as far as you are talking straight lies as I showed above, i will not waste time to look for this one).

    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    No, it isn't. Most players don't actually care about third party tools because it doesn't impact them whatsoever. The vast majority are coming in for the story, social aspects and whatnot. If that weren't the case, SE would have banned FFlogs and ACT a decade ago when they were first release. They never have despite the former gaining so much prominence in the raid scene it impacts the meta more than even the dev team. Don't believe me? Selfish jobs were never an actual problem in Stormblood.
    Talking very specifically about Stormblood, people were complaining so much about dragoon and samurai because they had no party buffs and nobody wanted them in their parties. So there was an issue with selfish jobs, but on the other end. And I personally don't see issue with haveing ACT and FFlogs, but how they are used. As far as the community that uses them becomes more and more agressive, there is a point where many people (as I did in the last year and half) just had enough of this crap.
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    At this point in time, the estimated number of players using third party tools exceeds 300k based on just unique downloads. SE isn't attracting anywhere near enough players to replace the sheer number they would lose to offset banning them all wholesale. Hence why they never have.
    Sold 10 million only last year, what they don't do? Can you fact check at least one of your statements before trolling?
    (1)

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