Mods and cheat engine

[Koldan]

So, the Coils raids used to be considered very difficult. But you can now run the Coils raids unsynced, with gear and abilities 40 levels higher, and basically solo them. Does this mean that someone who earned the Domitrix title back in ARR can take less pride in it now that the title is "easily achieved"? The presence of the title might be less impressive now, but I'd argue that most raiders who cleared Coils back then will still take pride in the fact that they did so back then, when they were still really difficult.

Heck, my FC's "Retro Raiders" group did Coils properly, synched down and everything, just last fall. And I can take pleasure in the fact that we managed to get through it properly, even if you can solo them unsynched now.

Similarly, I managed to get through Delubrum Reginae's savage variant prior to Zadnor coming out. Now DR Savage is considerably easier, what with the rays of valour mechanic added with Zadnor; people can go in and skip entire mechanics easily. But the fact that DRS is considerably easier now than when it first came out does nothing to change the fact that I'm happy I was able to clear it back then.

Things becoming easier over time is sort of the nature of ongoing online games where you have some sort of power progression (i.e. leveling of some form). If you allow yourself to be unhappy because other people who achieved something did it more easily than you did as a result of that power creep over time, you'll just make yourself miserable. That's why I, personally, choose not to let myself get upset over someone else using tools to make a fight easier (or even just more accessible to them); if I value my own achievements only by their rarity or perceived difficulty, I'll just drive myself mad.

Now, if we're talking about cheating in PvP, yeah, that's a problem; that's someone's cheating directly and deliberately impeding my ability to work towards an achievement, and I think that's wholly justified in getting upset about.

But "I ran content <X> blind, now people can run it unsynched/use Cactbot for callouts/whatever, so my achievement is lessened"? Nah, I can't find it in me to go with that logic. As I said, that way lies madness and misery, regardless of whether or not stuff like Cactbot exists. (Even aside from the fact that, as I noted, I consider Cactbot little different than having a good human raid-caller in voice chat and thus not really "cheating".)

Everything you mentioned is accessible inside the game, everyone can do it.
What we are talking about here are mods/hacks and such that allow you to do something base game doesnt give you, whats so hard to understand?
In mutlplayer environment there is no place to disparity like that.

[Melorie]

Everything you mentioned is accessible inside the game, everyone can do it.
What we are talking about here are mods/hacks and such that allow you to do something base game doesnt give you, whats so hard to understand?
In mutlplayer environment there is no place to disparity like that.

That's the whole point of modding though? They give you something the game doesn't have. Acting like it's giving you things that are destructive to the game though and affect people, is blowing it out of proportion, given it's not the case for the HUGE majority of the people that use them.

At this point, a lot of online games have/had it (E.V.E online, GW2, even RO had specific edits to the .grf to make your map more clear, TERA) and if it wasn't a plugin in-game, it could've been an external thing that gives you information that isn't easily accessible in game (BDO has very complex calculators for example). Even in Dead by Daylight, people customize their icons and other UI stuff with mods... That's the reality of online games nowadays, you can keep losing your mind like some people here because someone is using it, or you play the game like you want to. At this point, it doesn't really matter if you believe if there's "no place", they already have found their way.

It is not willfully ignorant or willfully instigating bringing up pvp when a common argument from people with the same or similar views as you argue “how does it effect you”. To point out there are ones that have a direct effect i think is valid. Just because maybe you or a few others don’t use the pvp ones specifically, doesnt mean others have a moral standing against using them for benefits that are directly against other players

It's true. I don't play PvP. And I think that people that are cheating inside PvP should be punished - I'm just saying that a huge part of the mod community, plugin creators, etc, are very against people creating things that affect others negatively, so when people pick everyone and place them in the same basket, it does seem extremely unfair to me.

I don't do much raiding, I have a terrible ping and I will never have a data center near where I live - you bet that if I tried to do savage or ultimate, I would download xivalexander. Many people I know are able to raid more comfortably because of it. And no one bats an eye because they're using something similar to it. So by all means, fight against bots and cheaters, but I ask that people in this discussion learn to separate things.

[Packetdancer]

Everything you mentioned is accessible inside the game, everyone can do it.
What we are talking about here are mods/hacks and such that allow you to do something base game doesnt give you, whats so hard to understand?

Nothing is. In fact, you have grasped the fundamental point I am trying to make (see bolded line).

If the argument is "Cactbot lets other people clear content more easily than I did when I did it, and if other people can clear it more easily my achievement is lessened as a result" — which is, in fact, an argument being made in this thread — then it's absolutely relevant. Because my actual, literal point is that "other people can clear a thing I cleared more easily than I did when I cleared it" is going to be true even without mods simply due to power creep over the course of a game's lifespan. Placing value on your achievements in-game only so long as they remain difficult is not going to be a path to happiness, even if Square-Enix found a way to magically erase all mods and third-party tools tomorrow with the digital equivalent of a Thanos-snap. Because, as I said—and you agreed—achievements are going to become easier over time naturally even just with stuff in the game.

When the argument is "someone using these tools to obtain this achievement actively impedes my own attempt to get this achievement"—i.e., PvP hackery, botting for the Ishgard restoration, etc.—then yes, I agree entirely it's a huge problem. When there's only a limited number of the achievement to be had—top 100 in a Feast season, Saint or Beata/Beatus titles for the Firmament, etc.—then anyone doing something to give themselves an advantage is absolutely a huge problem.

But when the argument is "Cactbot's Raidboss callouts make it easier for someone to clear savage content, therefore my clear of savage content is cheapened"... no. There's an infinite number of savage clear titles and rewards out there. The fact that someone else got their Eden mount from E12S using Cactbot for callouts does not lessen my enjoyment of having gotten it at level 80, any more than it does that people are getting the mount now running E12S unsynced at level 90. And that argument is being made in this thread—"are you still proud of your achievement now that other people can get it more easily"—and I will absolutely, categorically state that if you only remain happy with your PvE achievements so long as other people cannot get them, that is a recipe to drive yourself to madness and misery. Regardless of the existence or nonexistence of mods.