What are realistic DRK changes for savage?

[CKNovel]

Before "DRK was in world first" argument.
Remember DRK was also in UCOB world first (for a different reason), SMN was in multiple world first.

If DRK was chosen, it's not because of Unmend, not because of TBN, not because of Esteem, not because of Living Dead.
It was simply because it had bigger damage. If any other job had bigger damage, they would've been chosen instead.
Design of the job remains terrible.

The fact that most world first are BRD proves this as well...

[Kalaam]

Hardcore racers would pick a job that has 2 buttons and no mechanics if it dealt 5% more damage then one with fulfilling gameplay.
Worldfirsts sure are not a good metric of "design quality" of a job. Kind of how looking at a speedrun doesn't necesseraly say anything of a game's actual balance or how buggy it is "normally"

[Veranolth]

It's fine to ask for changes to DRK just don't use hyperbole. In dungeons DRK is fine, it's not as great for self-sustain but that doesn't mean it's bad, and the endgame isn't just dungeons. Kind of a copeout to say that for raids DRK just brings damage when TBN is great to use on the co-tank for tankbusters if you're the off-tank. You can main tank raids/trials just as well with DRK.

I still think DRK can use some changes, but I do think some people are exaggerating a bit.

edit: Would like to mention I don't play for the meta before someone makes a comment on that, I planned on being a tank main but mostly PLD/DRK for Endwalker. I don't care what's meta or not.

[Weetzlo]

Kind of a copeout to say that for raids DRK just brings damage when TBN is great to use on the co-tank for tankbusters if you're the off-tank. You can main tank raids/trials just as well with DRK.
.

The thing is that HoC and Aurora are targetable like TBN and Oblation, and Bloodwhetting and Holy Sheltron have a co-tank version in Nascent and Intervention so everyone else can co-tank as effectively as DRK. That's fine, there has to be an amount parity for it to be balanced, but what does DRK bring? WAR has a tiny cooldown on their invuln to cheese through more tank swaps. PLD has a casting phase so you can keep attacking through a mechanic without risking a vuln stack/ damage down. GNB brings literally 99% of DRKs damage while being generally more fun to push buttons on. The best case I can make for DRK is in fights with magic autos like Asphodelos 3, they need a bit less healing.

[RyuDragnier]

For those who think DRK is fine because of the world first clears, as a reminder, world first means nothing in the terms of data gathering. The total amount of clears with the class matter more than anything, something we can roughly see through clear parses after 2-4 weeks.

[Veranolth]

Never said specifically that DRK is fine because it was brought in for world first, only mentioned that it was brought in because it does just as fine as any other tanks in raids. If DRK is only weak in dungeons (and it's not that much weaker than the other tanks), then yeah I think being hyperbolic is not necessary.

Again, does DRK have issues? Yes, but it's not as bad as some people make it to be. Not sure why people are so hung up on this. I play DRK and do just fine, haven't done enough 90 dungeons on GNB yet, and my WAR is 88 and I plan to do more 90 dungeons on both so I can make a better comparison between the 4 tanks. I leveled PLD for the MSQ and did my Expert roulettes and EX trials with PLD at first until my DRK was 90, and have been playing that since. Just at 88 WAR feels way too strong with Bloodwhetting, I'm still surprised that didn't get nerfed when I was highly expecting nerfs to BW.

The thing is that HoC and Aurora are targetable like TBN and Oblation, and Bloodwhetting and Holy Sheltron have a co-tank version in Nascent and Intervention so everyone else can co-tank as effectively as DRK. That's fine, there has to be an amount parity for it to be balanced, but what does DRK bring? WAR has a tiny cooldown on their invuln to cheese through more tank swaps. PLD has a casting phase so you can keep attacking through a mechanic without risking a vuln stack/ damage down. GNB brings literally 99% of DRKs damage while being generally more fun to push buttons on. The best case I can make for DRK is in fights with magic autos like Asphodelos 3, they need a bit less healing.

And TBN is an absorb shield which other tanks do not have, and allows for more cheese. And the toolkits for tanks didn't change much from ShB aside from PLD gaining Holy Sheltron, WAR gaining Bloodwhetting, and GNB gaining HoC. DRK does have Dark Missionary and yes I'm well aware GNB has a similar CD. DRK being the anti-magic tank is fine to me, I'd argue that they could emphasis on that more to make it distinct from the other 3 tanks.

Other edit: I'm going to be doing Savage starting next weekend so I will actually be able to comment more on Savage, especially since this is what the thread actually is about.

[Weetzlo]

I'm not trying to come at you personally and be nasty, I'm not mad that you disagree with me, but this is legitimately how your message reads to me.

TBN gives yellow health instead of green health which makes it better for ....reasons. DRKs are still playing ShB but that's fine because everyone is. PLD's uptime on guaranteed block just went from 30% to 40%, while getting a 1000 potency heal and baked in and additional mit. Also, their ranged phase became 60% longer making it that much more comfortable when you have to dodge point blank AoEs or take a flare marker away from the group. That's all. Plus if you think about it DRKs do bring something to the table other tanks can't. They bring this ability that another tank has (To most content anyway since DRK learns it 12 levels later)

Like I do not understand the point you're trying to put out here

[Veranolth]

I didn't say that though? I don't know what kind of fabricated quote is that but if you're gonna put words in my mouth, stop that.

If anything you seem to take my disagreement more personal. Talk about nasty.

[Weetzlo]

I didn't say that though? I don't know what kind of fabricated quote is that but if you're gonna put words in my mouth, stop that.

If anything you seem to take my disagreement more personal. Talk about nasty.

TBN is an absorb shield which other tanks do not have, and allows for more cheese

A shield is literally yellow health that you heal before instead of after the attack. 25% shield and healing for 25% of your total health are identical in every situation except those where 1 attack would deal more damage than your maximum health pool. Given that you did not give any spicy tech situations where that's extra applicable I think "TBN gives yellow health instead of green health which makes it better for ....reasons." Is a reasonable, though obviously ironic way to put it back out there to highlight what a weird statement it is.

And the toolkits for tanks didn't change much from ShB aside from PLD gaining Holy Sheltron, WAR gaining Bloodwhetting, and GNB gaining HoC

Put another way, 'They didn't change except for the ways that they changed.' some of which like PLD were great big strides and we don't need to take another thread to talk about Bloodwhetting being as good as it is. Even if they weren't though, the concept of 6.0 DRK being so remarkably similar to 5.0 DRK wouldn't be okay if it were also true of other tanks.

DRK does have Dark Missionary and yes I'm well aware GNB has a similar CD

Seemingly in response to the question "What does DRK do that others can't/ Why bring DRK over another tank?" you gave this answer. Thier "Unique utility" is something another job does exactly the same in current content and DRK can't even do in Ivalice, Omega, the first 2 ultimates, and even several dungeons.

Like maybe my attempt at some facetious humor came off as catty, text is somehwat limiting in that regard but you really did say those things

[Veranolth]

You're saying you're not trying to come at me personally and be nasty, but your last couple posts feel nasty. I don't have time to waste with that kind of talk. All I'm saying is people are being hyperbolic about DRKs. I'm even admitting that DRK could use some changes (because it really could), but you specifically are so hung up on wanting the last words and being right, and I just don't have the energy to engage with you.

If they end up buffing DRK, good. If not, it's whatever really. That's my last reply to you. Be nasty somewhere else.