The Dead Ends is yet another error in the push to make everything hardcore

[Silverquick]

Uh no. I've wiped three times to the second boss because there are way too many AoEs that are too hard to see because they overlap each other. Also, the laser beams don't have any visual AoE indicator until it's too late, so you have to guess where to stand. The worst part is that Alphinaud can't heal you because he is too slow. I'm glad that you thought it was easy but not everyone is a hardcore elite gamer so chill with your personal attacks.

I do actually agree with that,

Honestly these dungeons in this expansion overall are much more difficult than in previous editions. There are a lot more things that don't have visual tells, and are becoming more reminiscent of the way. So you're not wrong. They were starting to upgrade a little in difficulty in ShB, but they've taken a rather large step in that direction now, and you're also right, the Trust "healers" don't really do very well at it, shockingly the player healers are much better at it.

But I too have now seen off and on full party wipes when doing those with players on various ones, all due to the mechanics being a lot more concealed.

EDIT: Though there was one healer yesterday that could not understand there's a lot more raid wide damage in these Dungeons now, so you have to keep people topped off or it eventually wipes them. It gets noticable during things like the Stack ups where suddenly people are dying even though everyone is in it.

[Omedon]

1. It's the last dungeon in the MSQ. It should be more difficult than the rest.

No.

I'm kinda with the OP on this entire line of thought. The longer the MSQ goes (and it does look like all future MSQ will be stacked on top of what we have now), the less... I wanna lightly use the word "right" the game has to tell us "welp, after Xhundred hours, I guess you're just not good enough to unlock the whole MMO!"

This goes deeper than dungeons ("In from the cold" anyone?), this is a big problem with the idea of "MSQ as both gate to the game *AND* a skill test." It's busted, it's escalating, and the entire concept is audacious. There comes a point where you've proven yourself and should just... get to rely on unlocking the game because it would be ridiculous to get blocked at the 11th hour.

The dead ends is a part of the problem. Less so because yes, it's group content and you COULD get carried through it, (again, see "in from the cold") but it's still a problem. After Xhundred hours in the MSQ, I should not have to be Xhundred times better to just... unlock the game! Should I just expect that the day will come in another decade where, at a decade older, my reflexes won't be able to hack the MSQ? Am I just done then? In any other game it might be reasonable, but not in an MMORPG like this.

Just my opinion.

[Avidria]

...

Ok Im like 99% sure the OP is entirely trolling based off their other posts in this thread, but like... gonna give the benefit of the doubt and just say there is absolutely nothing "hardcore" about the Dead Ends at all. It's not even the hardest (or even most annoying) 4 man dungeon in the game. I mean, I've seen more wipes in Keeper of the Lake, no joke. Which is to say, I've seen several wipes in Keeper and zero in Dead Ends. People seemed to struggle more with tree doggo in Don Mheg than with Buff Lazer Turret in Dead Ends, at least from what I've seen so far.

Obviously different people are gonna find different things easy, but if someone is genuinely having trouble with this they can do it with trusts and literally stand on top of one of the trust friends for like 90% of the dungeon because they will always do the mechanics correctly (except possibly Alisaie I've been told? not too sure on that lmao). I think there's like one spread mechanic on the second boss, but that's it. Just slap a danger dorito on G'raha (or whoever) and become his best bud.

The only "new" mechanic I can even think of in this fight is the prancing quarter room aoe's on the last boss and MAYBE the big laser he shoots, and like? One hit from either is survivable and after that it should be clear that it's just a pretty aoe marker and a straight line aoe. The only annoying part of that fight is the butterflies, imo, because it is kinda hard to tell which way they're facing when they're so uniform in color. I'm genuinely struggling to think of what other mechanic doesn't have a clear indicator, or clear enough once it's gone off once, except maybe the triangle lasers? But they face outward and make a V shape between them all, so there's always going to be a safe spot in between them near the outside of the arena. I dunno, I'll have to run it later to see, but genuinely what new and un-telegraphed mechanics are there??

Like I'll be real, I've done hardcore content, and I've also struggled hard with mechanics other people have had no issues with, but I'm genuinely struggling to see how anyone could genuinely and unironically consider any of the MSQ dungeons to be "hardcore."

Even general story wise, like... they nerfed In From the Cold, making the easy mode easier, and heck even adding the easy mode in the first place is a tool to make the story more accessible. If they start like genuinely throwing no-forgiveness one shot mechanics into every fight or something then yeah, that's a bit too far for story content, but I have a hard time believing they WILL go that far (and if they do, I've got a harder time believing they won't backtrack on it later).

[Lemuria]

I've seen more wipes in Keeper of the Lake, no joke. Which is to say, I've seen several wipes in Keeper and zero in Dead Ends. People seemed to struggle more with tree doggo in Don Mheg than with Buff Lazer Turret in Dead Ends, at least from what I've seen so far.

Press X to doubt.

While I'm in total agreement that it's really not as difficult as the OP claims, there are several points that throw a lot of players off.

1. There is literally a doom mechanic on the first boss which isn't obvious unless you mouseover the ailment (needs to be Esuna'd). I've seen healers focus entirely on curing the damage from the puddles and not realise impending death was coming up.

2. Second boss scatters a ton of AoE all over the place. This includes those diagonal lasers while still trying to dodge circular AoE around the edges. No Future also dumps a ton of overlapping AoE markers which almost inevitably catches out at least one player and deals a fair amount of damage. The lasers also have a much bigger hitbox than you would anticipate from the size of the glowing orbs. Melee get caught out by this a lot.

3. Another doom mechanic (this one requiring you to restore HP to full) in the final boss as well as high raid-wide damage (Warm Glow).

I've run this dungeon a fair number of times on different jobs, so I've seen it from all three angles. Tank, DPS and heal. It is, in my opinion, the dungeon which catches out the most players on their first playthrough - especially if going in blind. I agree it's far from extreme trial fights, but I do feel it's a bit disingenuous to completely disregard their arguments. Personally, I enjoyed the greater challenge. No worse than the final dungeon of Shadowbringers MSQ overall (can't count how many kept falling off the arena on final boss there!), but I can at least understand their points.

[Avidria]

Press X to doubt.

While I'm in total agreement that it's really not as difficult as the OP claims, there are several points that throw a lot of players off.

1. There is literally a doom mechanic on the first boss which isn't obvious unless you mouseover the ailment (needs to be Esuna'd). I've seen healers focus entirely on curing the damage from the puddles and not realise impending death was coming up.

2. Second boss scatters a ton of AoE all over the place. This includes those diagonal lasers while still trying to dodge circular AoE around the edges. No Future also dumps a ton of overlapping AoE markers which almost inevitably catches out at least one player and deals a fair amount of damage. The lasers also have a much bigger hitbox than you would anticipate from the size of the glowing orbs. Melee get caught out by this a lot.

3. Another doom mechanic (this one requiring you to restore HP to full) in the final boss as well as high raid-wide damage (Warm Glow).

I've run this dungeon a fair number of times on different jobs, so I've seen it from all three angles. Tank, DPS and heal. It is, in my opinion, the dungeon which catches out the most players on their first playthrough - especially if going in blind. I agree it's far from extreme trial fights, but I do feel it's a bit disingenuous to completely disregard their arguments. Personally, I enjoyed the greater challenge. No worse than the final dungeon of Shadowbringers MSQ overall (can't count how many kept falling off the arena on final boss there!), but I can at least understand their points.

I mean by all means doubt me, but I really was just sharing my (of course anecdotal) experience. I've seen groups wipe to trash in Keeper and Don Mheg, I've seen groups wipe multiple times in a row to the first and last boss in Keeper, I've seen groups fail to deal with the tethers on Tree Dog in Don Mheg and wipe more than once because of it (despite me explaining what to do), etc. etc. I mean I've also run both of those dungeons more than this one, maybe I've just been lucky so far, but I've seen and had less problems with Dead Ends than I have with other dungeons in the past.

While I'm, again, 99% sure the OP is trolling, just based on their other posts on page 1, I also have acknowledged the dungeon has some tricky mechanics. I just also think saying it's egregiously more difficult than any other dungeon in the game just isn't true, and to say it's indicative of a trend toward making story content "hardcore" is disingenuous at best and absurd at worst. (Edit to clarify I'm not saying that's your claim or anything, just... in general. To the thread and the sentiment of it)

[Xtro99]

Press X to doubt.

While I'm in total agreement that it's really not as difficult as the OP claims, there are several points that throw a lot of players off.

1. There is literally a doom mechanic on the first boss which isn't obvious unless you mouseover the ailment (needs to be Esuna'd). I've seen healers focus entirely on curing the damage from the puddles and not realise impending death was coming up.

2. Second boss scatters a ton of AoE all over the place. This includes those diagonal lasers while still trying to dodge circular AoE around the edges. No Future also dumps a ton of overlapping AoE markers which almost inevitably catches out at least one player and deals a fair amount of damage. The lasers also have a much bigger hitbox than you would anticipate from the size of the glowing orbs. Melee get caught out by this a lot.

3. Another doom mechanic (this one requiring you to restore HP to full) in the final boss as well as high raid-wide damage (Warm Glow).

I've run this dungeon a fair number of times on different jobs, so I've seen it from all three angles. Tank, DPS and heal. It is, in my opinion, the dungeon which catches out the most players on their first playthrough - especially if going in blind. I agree it's far from extreme trial fights, but I do feel it's a bit disingenuous to completely disregard their arguments. Personally, I enjoyed the greater challenge. No worse than the final dungeon of Shadowbringers MSQ overall (can't count how many kept falling off the arena on final boss there!), but I can at least understand their points.

SE added a bunch of "surprise" (unforgiving) mechanics to some bosses like the last boss in Vanaspati. If you go in blind, chaces are you're going to die a couple of times to the floor explosion and/or the meteors

[sindriiisgaming]

No.

This goes deeper than dungeons ("In from the cold" anyone?), this is a big problem with the idea of "MSQ as both gate to the game *AND* a skill test." It's busted, it's escalating, and the entire concept is audacious. There comes a point where you've proven yourself and should just... get to rely on unlocking the game because it would be ridiculous to get blocked at the 11th hour.

The dead ends is a part of the problem. Less so because yes, it's group content and you COULD get carried through it, (again, see "in from the cold") but it's still a problem. After Xhundred hours in the MSQ, I should not have to be Xhundred times better to just... unlock the game! Should I just expect that the day will come in another decade where, at a decade older, my reflexes won't be able to hack the MSQ? Am I just done then? In any other game it might be reasonable, but not in an MMORPG like this.

Just my opinion.

my god XD is the skill gap between the super casual and the average player this DEEP? i stoped struggling with the majority of dungeon mecanics after i cleared my first ex.. the only trial to even make me sweat was hydie/zod and barbie. you cannot seriously expect the game to be so easy that you dont need to make any effort to get better at it. no game is going to hand hold you and ffxiv already hand holds to a rediculous degree. im sorrry but for your own sake please make an attempt to improve at the game

[DamianFatale]

1. It's the last dungeon in the MSQ. It should be more difficult than the rest.

2. The hardest part about the dungeon was the mob pulls between bosses.

3. Literally every mechanic in all three bosses was visual AOE indicators. You would have to be visually impaired to have any problem with them. Apologies if you are visually impaired.

4. No boss in The Dead Ends uses an Exaflare.

Wanted to upvote, but the insult to people that are visually impaired could have been left out. Ableism isn't kind.

[Avidria]

Wanted to upvote, but the insult to people that are visually impaired could have been left out. Ableism isn't kind.

I mean, he isn't wrong, and I don't necessarily see that comment as an insult, or at least probably (hopefully) not intended as one (against folks with vision issues anyway). I am visually impaired, and I do struggle to see certain mechanics in game. Certain fights are a nightmare because of it. The butterflies on the last boss of Dead Ends is actually one of the things I had issues with for a while, because they're all the same color and also the same color as the ground, but my friend pointed out that there are arrows on the ground under them that are a darker orange color, and now that I know they're there it's much easier for me to read the mechanic.

I've been throwing my hat in for SE to make things less flashy and visually cluttered for years, but that's an issue with the game overall and not necessarily with the difficulty of this one particular dungeon.

Edit to add that I think most of the indicators in this dungeon are actually fairly clear. The two that are less so are the butterflies, because color matching nightmare, and the wind that pushes aoe's on the first boss because it might not be clear at first what the wind is gonna push (since similar mechanics have also pushed the player in the past). The red aoes on the second boss can be tough to follow, but that's more a fault of the explosion effect blocking so much vision imo - if I was gonna want one change in this dungeon, it'd be to tone that down some, but otherwise I've been dealing with it by angling my camera down toward the ground to see the markers better. The only other changes I could even see them making that imo could make sense would be making those aoe's a little slower and a little less flashy, and possibly making it more obvious that the doom on the first boss is a doom (I'm a dps main and have a bad habit of tunneling so I actually didn't know it was a doom myself until somebody pointed it out). I don't really think it needs to change, but also wouldn't be opposed to small things like that.

[Renathras]

3. Literally every mechanic in all three bosses was visual AOE indicators. You would have to be visually impaired to have any problem with them. Apologies if you are visually impaired.

I'm not a hardcore raider, but have done Extremes as my endgame since late SB (been playing since ARR) and just finally tried Savages this raid tier (friends convinced me P1S is BASICALLY equal in difficulty to HydEx, so I finally gave it a try and got my clears and a couple P2S clears on the side). But the FIRST bosses' "wind blowing the AOEs" kept killing me. It's not immediately obvious what's going on there. While "weather" effects in fights are often not things they throw around for no reason, I think it was about 3 runs before I figured out what the pattern of the AOE movement there was based on - the wind direction. I thought they were just random and had no way to find the holes.

And I say this as a person who enjoyed those fights - I'm a healer main but when I got SCH/SMN to 90 at the end of Elpis, I swapped to my GNB I had been running dailies with and ran Laby 2.0 and Ultima on it, and that second Dead Ends boss fight was especially awesome as a tank. Rotating around the boss with that epic music playing is just a ton of fun if you AREN'T on a Caster/Healer.

So I loved the dungeon and the fights...but I can see how the difficulty was a BIT punishing for MSQ content. MSQ is supposed to be easy enough for just about everyone to clear and for people to even manage with semi-braindead-NPCs (or semi-braindead-PCs, for that matter). And several of the fights are a BIT harder than that.

Other than the wind blowing first boss, I didn't have TOO MANY problems (the only time I tend to take damage on the 2nd or 3rd fight are if I get greedy), but I can still see it was probably harder than it should have been. The glowing wing on the final boss is also easy to miss at first, especially since everything there is already bright blue and gold and the visual for the wing is bright blue-green so somewhat easy to miss. Especially since I wasn't thinking the fights would be Extreme-level difficulty in some of the mechanics. Savage raiders don't think much of Extreme heroes like myself, but Ex's are still a tier of difficulty above normal content and that matters in being able to recognize and survive mechanics. If you do harder stuff (like Savage) frequently, your uptake is probably far faster than average. Even doing Extremes you're a leg up.

So I can see how people who DON'T tend to do anything that isn't MSQ would have trouble with their first Dead Ends run(s).

EDIT:

Look at the floor, there are actual lines on the textures that mark the safe zones between the lasers.

Wait...the what now? o.O

I'm going to have to go do these again just to see this. This is the first I've ever heard of it and I never noticed it while running...that IS a raid thing; normal MSQ type content doesn't tend to have the arena layout as a hint to mechanics. That's wild...yeah, so the fights are probably even harder than I thought! I'll have to reevaluate, as this makes it clear OP is more right, not less...