RDM should get a slight nerf

[SaberMaxwell]

Mobility which will offer virtually zero advantages. Look at the Eden series. How many mechanics were Casters unable to handle without losing uptime? None.

That isn't to say no mechanics challenged a caster's ability to maintain their uptime. Even in the final tier you had Cloud of Darkness which, in addition to several mechanics which led to casters needing to traverse a good chunk of the field (tethers, Anti-Air if you got the shit-end of the stick positioning wise, the social distancing squares mechanic). In Red Mage's case specifically, Thancranjit presented issues when he did lightning at 2min in if you were running 2 tank 2 melee because there was hardly enough room to be in to do the melee combo at the burst point. Mechanics like Stormy Horizons were particularly taxing for casters to plan ahead to as well because of the quick nature of the AoEs being dropped out.

Casters worked to get around these problems, but that's their gameplay: to work to get around those problems with either team coordination or planned usage of mobility skills ahead of time. You can argue that the casters have been getting more tools as time goes on, and that's true especially if you look at Summoner who is now so mobile they have a "casting phase."

Where we agree on this topic is that mobility tax is too high. The entirety of the physical ranged and summoner don't need to be the weakest jobs because they can move about with near-impunity. Where we'll have to agree to disagree is in the idea that fights are not designed in such a way where mobility and arena-denial are accounted for; in Ultimates, despite the "Rez Mage" meme, Summoner was always more valuable because of how much more easily it could navigate the field with its (yes, even then) ridiculous level of mobility on a caster. Groups with Summoners could have the Summoner be the Phys Ranged's backup for Liquid Hells. Groups with Summoners didn't need to plan around one of the players being stuck in the mud during Brute/Cruise. Summoners also had to drop next to no uptime at all handling Ifrit baits in UWU, and even baiting during Annihilation, whereas a Red Mage or Black Mage would inevitably run out of options to keep its GCD rolling during those phases.

[Bhearil]

Remember that SMN then was able to deal almost BLM levels of damage while being much more mobile and having utility, making RDM completely obsolete and being the main cause of the "Rez Mage" meme sbecause once your team knows the mechanics enough you just switched it for SMN that still had the revive blanket with better mobility and damage than RDM to boot.

Basically RDM was so inferior that the only part where it shined was when you were going on Savage/Ex blind to see more of the fight and save time

[remiff]

Remember that SMN then was able to deal almost BLM levels of damage while being much more mobile and having utility, making RDM completely obsolete and being the main cause of the "Rez Mage" meme sbecause once your team knows the mechanics enough you just switched it for SMN that still had the revive blanket with better mobility and damage than RDM to boot.

Basically RDM was so inferior that the only part where it shined was when you were going on Savage/Ex blind to see more of the fight and save time

in any case the summoner was terribly bad in beginning of each extension, and even before the rework, and no job deserves to be positioned in such a place of weakness/design .

the balances done on the jobs are done by the devs so in case a job is trashed or broken it is their fault, the 5.1 summoner was too strong and no job should be as powerful, but it was a kind of compensation because summoner 5.0 was so trashtier, finally he was nerfed between at 5.2-5.3, and the red mage buffed at 5.4 where he was better in single target situation.

in any case nothing justifies the current state of the summoner, as at each extension release, and the summoner needs a slight buff / correction on what is wrong in his rotation, I see not how is this a problem.


the red mage is in a good spot in terms of firepower / kit,
the summoner has concerns about his kit which affects the quality of life of the job, the gameplay is suffering with restrictions on use on utility spells, but in addition the firepower is extremely low, so it is normal for the summoner to be adjusted.

[MaelleRiou]

Something to keep in mind is that the top parsing red mages are the ones who don't have to use verraise. Red mage gets taxed just for having raise and then taxed again every time it uses it. Nerfs shouldn't be dictated by the top parses because they are often in positions that other players aren't.

[dinnertime]

Something to keep in mind is that the top parsing red mages are the ones who don't have to use verraise. Red mage gets taxed just for having raise and then taxed again every time it uses it. Nerfs shouldn't be dictated by the top parses because they are often in positions that other players aren't.

Uh, they definitely should be because balancing is measured at the full potential of every job. It absolutely makes no sense not to.

[MaelleRiou]

Uh, they definitely should be because balancing is measured at the full potential of every job. It absolutely makes no sense not to.

If you're going to balance with utility in mind then you have to take into consideration the cost of actually using that utility. Which the top parses do not, since the top parsing red mages are the ones who aren't having to raise people.

[dinnertime]

If you're going to balance with utility in mind then you have to take into consideration the cost of actually using that utility. Which the top parses do not, since the top parsing red mages are the ones who aren't having to raise people.

Raise is like the ONLY utility that costs you DPS along with Vercure. Thing is, you only use these spells for progression and when you're doing prog, you shouldn't care too much about your damage because you're trying to survive learning the fight.
After that, Raise becomes near unnecessary for you to use and it's smarter to let the healers do the raising if they're both still alive.

Anyway since we're comparing RDM to SMN in this thread, they both have Raises so none are special from the other in that regard.

[rewd]

Something to keep in mind is that the top parsing red mages are the ones who don't have to use verraise. Red mage gets taxed just for having raise and then taxed again every time it uses it. Nerfs shouldn't be dictated by the top parses because they are often in positions that other players aren't.

Kills/Speedruns: RDM is better than SMN because it deals more damage. This includes top parsers
Prog: RDM is better than SMN because it has better utility.

So what's your point? It doesn't matter what we consider or what we exclude, RDM is still better than SMN in every way.

[LunarEmerald]

The fact that red mage is so much better at raising and saving runs than summoner is why summoner should be above it in damage.

[IchiExorz]

I agree SMN should be stronger than RDM but I don't think RDM should be weaker than it is right now.

I personally don't like the prog vs kill balancing. I don't want to feel less wanted or less useful because i'm with people who know what to do.
I think offensive utility is more important when it comes to how much it should tax personal dps. Defensive utility should too but to a lesser extent imo.

SMN just needs buffs.