RDM should get a slight nerf

[dinnertime]

Something to keep in mind is that the top parsing red mages are the ones who don't have to use verraise. Red mage gets taxed just for having raise and then taxed again every time it uses it. Nerfs shouldn't be dictated by the top parses because they are often in positions that other players aren't.

Uh, they definitely should be because balancing is measured at the full potential of every job. It absolutely makes no sense not to.

[MaelleRiou]

Uh, they definitely should be because balancing is measured at the full potential of every job. It absolutely makes no sense not to.

If you're going to balance with utility in mind then you have to take into consideration the cost of actually using that utility. Which the top parses do not, since the top parsing red mages are the ones who aren't having to raise people.

[dinnertime]

If you're going to balance with utility in mind then you have to take into consideration the cost of actually using that utility. Which the top parses do not, since the top parsing red mages are the ones who aren't having to raise people.

Raise is like the ONLY utility that costs you DPS along with Vercure. Thing is, you only use these spells for progression and when you're doing prog, you shouldn't care too much about your damage because you're trying to survive learning the fight.
After that, Raise becomes near unnecessary for you to use and it's smarter to let the healers do the raising if they're both still alive.

Anyway since we're comparing RDM to SMN in this thread, they both have Raises so none are special from the other in that regard.

[Gruntler]

Uh, they definitely should be because balancing is measured at the full potential of every job. It absolutely makes no sense not to.

Wrong.

Job balance is based on ability to clear, and performance across a variety of skill levels. It is not based upon 100 percentile.

CBU3 doesn't give a shit about how well a player does at 100th percentile, because there's no balance to balance there. This is a PvE game, and jobs must be balanced as to their ability to vs Environment.

Once you're at 100th percentile, the versus environment part of the game is not really a factor. Speedrunning is a community activity--it has NOTHING to do with game balance, outside of degeneracy.

[rewd]

Something to keep in mind is that the top parsing red mages are the ones who don't have to use verraise. Red mage gets taxed just for having raise and then taxed again every time it uses it. Nerfs shouldn't be dictated by the top parses because they are often in positions that other players aren't.

Kills/Speedruns: RDM is better than SMN because it deals more damage. This includes top parsers
Prog: RDM is better than SMN because it has better utility.

So what's your point? It doesn't matter what we consider or what we exclude, RDM is still better than SMN in every way.

[LunarEmerald]

The fact that red mage is so much better at raising and saving runs than summoner is why summoner should be above it in damage.

[IchiExorz]

I agree SMN should be stronger than RDM but I don't think RDM should be weaker than it is right now.

I personally don't like the prog vs kill balancing. I don't want to feel less wanted or less useful because i'm with people who know what to do.
I think offensive utility is more important when it comes to how much it should tax personal dps. Defensive utility should too but to a lesser extent imo.

SMN just needs buffs.

[Tlamila]

People say mobility doesn't matter, but I still think until the day SMN has to continously go in melee to deal damage, it makes no sense to compare them. And if mobility doesn't matter, a dancer and a dragoon should deal the same damage as well.

Using vercure as reason, too, is pretty lame, when do you even use vercure unless everybody is just dead? And at that point, might as well res people rather than try to play my little healer. Or just wipe it because if it got to the point where a rdm has to heal, the situation is just too tragic. And yeah, the res is powerful, but once you're done learning the fight you don't need it anymore. And then we go back like before, with RDM being used as resmage for prog and then tossed away cause not enough dps. The shiled is the only utility which can help anytime, and it has a pretty long cd anyway, you can only count on it so much.

I feel like it's the first time in a while SMN doesn't annhilate RDM in terms of dmg, all with the crazy mobility, and people are salty about it. And even still, every party seems to have at least 2 summoners while I barely see red mages now.

[Madoka]

until the day SMN has to continously go in melee to deal damage, it makes no sense to compare them.

You mean Dec 3rd?

[Grimoire-M]

Honestly Summoner can remain at the bottom. It belongs there simply by virtue of being better utility than all of the ranged DPS while being easier to play and less ping reliant than Machinist. Yes you can play around Phoenix’s HoT, believe it or not. Red Mage by contrast has more mobility/positioning concerns and has significantly more hardcasts. We are at a point where dps AoE healing CD stacking can obsolete healers entirely, so the Phoenix vs Magic Barrier discussion should err more on taxing the former, simply to keep that specific abuse case down. I’m not sure how much the new Acceleration changes has improved Red Mage but I’m certain it’s significant given how far Egi Assaults and Further Ruin went on Summoner in ShB.

Even so, Summoner IS that easy. There’s no excuse not to keep it down. I’d rather see Red Mage buffs if I’m being honest, but there are bigger issues than catering to the caster role at the moment. It’s one of the few things that makes sense at the moment.