RDM should get a slight nerf

[SaberMaxwell]

Mobility which will offer virtually zero advantages. Look at the Eden series. How many mechanics were Casters unable to handle without losing uptime? None.

That isn't to say no mechanics challenged a caster's ability to maintain their uptime. Even in the final tier you had Cloud of Darkness which, in addition to several mechanics which led to casters needing to traverse a good chunk of the field (tethers, Anti-Air if you got the shit-end of the stick positioning wise, the social distancing squares mechanic). In Red Mage's case specifically, Thancranjit presented issues when he did lightning at 2min in if you were running 2 tank 2 melee because there was hardly enough room to be in to do the melee combo at the burst point. Mechanics like Stormy Horizons were particularly taxing for casters to plan ahead to as well because of the quick nature of the AoEs being dropped out.

Casters worked to get around these problems, but that's their gameplay: to work to get around those problems with either team coordination or planned usage of mobility skills ahead of time. You can argue that the casters have been getting more tools as time goes on, and that's true especially if you look at Summoner who is now so mobile they have a "casting phase."

Where we agree on this topic is that mobility tax is too high. The entirety of the physical ranged and summoner don't need to be the weakest jobs because they can move about with near-impunity. Where we'll have to agree to disagree is in the idea that fights are not designed in such a way where mobility and arena-denial are accounted for; in Ultimates, despite the "Rez Mage" meme, Summoner was always more valuable because of how much more easily it could navigate the field with its (yes, even then) ridiculous level of mobility on a caster. Groups with Summoners could have the Summoner be the Phys Ranged's backup for Liquid Hells. Groups with Summoners didn't need to plan around one of the players being stuck in the mud during Brute/Cruise. Summoners also had to drop next to no uptime at all handling Ifrit baits in UWU, and even baiting during Annihilation, whereas a Red Mage or Black Mage would inevitably run out of options to keep its GCD rolling during those phases.

[Katie_Kitty]

Summoner could use a buff, that doesn't mean RDM needs a nerf. That's pretty ridiculous to even suggest honestly. RDM is fine. Keep it as it is, buff weaker jobs, maybe nerf Reaper slightly and maybe monk. that's all we need.

[dinnertime]

IMO, RDM and SMN are pretty much on par with one another in terms of utility.

They're not. The only comparable thing about them is the Raise and party buff.

People have said this time and again, Phoenix's "utility" is too inconvenient to matter. No one is going to hold onto Phoenix for regens, especially when healers have a plethora of healing tools. It won't make a difference.

Magick Barrier and Radiant Aegis isn't even a fair comparison because Radiant Aegis only affects yourself, not the entire party. If you're going to do that then might as well add BLM's Manawall to the discussion.

[Dyvid]

They're not. The only comparable thing about them is the Raise and party buff.

People have said this time and again, Phoenix's "utility" is too inconvenient to matter. No one is going to hold onto Phoenix for regens, especially when healers have a plethora of healing tools. It won't make a difference.

Magick Barrier and Radiant Aegis isn't even a fair comparison because Radiant Aegis only affects yourself, not the entire party. If you're going to do that then might as well add BLM's Manawall to the discussion.

Healers have a plethora of healing tools and damage mitigation tools, RDM and SMN don't really need these skills anyway. Physical Ranged DPS got damage mitigation tools. None of it will make or break a fight, it's really just a bonus gimme.

Summoner utility is locked behind specific phases. You can’t seriously tell me that rekindle is a real utility. You can use it once every 2 minutes for a 15 second window.

Yea, it is. Design problems aside, Everlasting Flight and Enkindle are considered utility even though it's just luck that raid damage and Phoenix line up. By the by, you can only use Magick Barrier every 2 minutes but it's benefit is commanded rather than luck.

But whatever, if ya'll want to see RDM DPS 10% to 20% lower because of a barrier that's fine with me.

[MaelleRiou]

If phoenix heal doesn't count as utility because healing is easy, then shouldn't Magick Barrier not count as utility for the same exact reason?

[Sylvant]

Okay, but branching outside of the M. Ranged role; why does RDM get Magick Barrier with two effects and the P. Ranged only get reduced cooldown on their equivalent?
Gimme secondary effects on Troubadour and such.

[SaberMaxwell]

Okay, but branching outside of the M. Ranged role; why does RDM get Magick Barrier with two effects and the P. Ranged only get reduced cooldown on their equivalent?
Gimme secondary effects on Troubadour and such.

Magick Barrier lasts 10 seconds and only does magic damage. Troubadour lasts 15 seconds and does all damage.

[Sylvant]

Magick Barrier lasts 10 seconds and only does magic damage. Troubadour lasts 15 seconds and does all damage.

Nooo! I knew somebody would call me on my bullshit...

Jokes aside, I do think RDM has gotten quite the arsenal of supportive tools to the job's benefit. So far, they've only stolen cookies from the WHM and BLM cookie jar, so I'm happy they're kind of branching out and using things in other jobs as well. I don't think the job needs a nerf, rather, I think SMN needs to be brought up a little bit.
Now if only they'd get more melee skills...

[SaberMaxwell]

Nooo! I knew somebody would call me on my bullshit...

Jokes aside, I do think RDM has gotten quite the arsenal of supportive tools to the job's benefit. So far, they've only stolen cookies from the WHM and BLM cookie jar, so I'm happy they're kind of branching out and using things in other jobs as well. I don't think the job needs a nerf, rather, I think SMN needs to be brought up a little bit.
Now if only they'd get more melee skills...

I agree, SMN needs to be brought up to RDM's level. RDM got a lot good this expansion, though everybody else is looking at Magick Barrier while I'm like "Look everyone! Acceleration changes! Bankable mobility I'm so happy!" I think a nerf Red Mage does need is to make Verraise incompatible with Dualcast, that way they can keep raise and they can keep swiftcast raise and the utility gets equaled out with SMN's own variant of the spell.

[zcrash970]

If phoenix heal doesn't count as utility because healing is easy, then shouldn't Magick Barrier not count as utility for the same exact reason?

Because mitigation is always good because it can make a difference in a raid wide and mechanics.the problem with healing is it really easy to cap the party hp with just oGCDs or one GCD even in healing extensive fights.

But even if Phoenix Regen would be useful it's on a 2 minute CD that you have to use when the CD is up because you can't delay your rotation