Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[Maxilor]

I started on Red Mage but quit the game because it was boring once the flashy skills wore off and ceased to be exciting.

If a job is boring to the point of being adverse to user retention (not reaching cap) then that becomes and objective problem.

It seems a bit excessive to quit an MMO because a single class wasn't to your tastes, I assume it wasn't the only issue you had with the game.

Red Mage to me was never a boring class despite it's simplicity, because the class's gameplay flow (usually described as 'The Waltz') always felt satisfying and cool. It rewards good positioning for backflipping out of AOEs and with it's current iteration focusing more on the Melee Caster aspect as well as being a great support it just feels fantastic.

Now, why does Red Mage get such praise but new Summoner is considered boring despite both classes having similar complexity?

This is the question Square should be asking themselves.

[Rolder50]

It seems a bit excessive to quit an MMO because a single class wasn't to your tastes, I assume it wasn't the only issue you had with the game.

Red Mage to me was never a boring class despite it's simplicity, because the class's gameplay flow (usually described as 'The Waltz') always felt satisfying and cool. It rewards good positioning for backflipping out of AOEs and with it's current iteration focusing more on the Melee Caster aspect as well as being a great support it just feels fantastic.

Now, why does Red Mage get such praise but new Summoner is considered boring despite both classes having similar complexity?

This is the question Square should be asking themselves.

Unnecessary bolding aside, the reason people are upset at Summoner is because it USED TO BE complex and require thought, then it was changed to be the simplest DPS in the game. Therefore, the people who were playing it for the complexity are upset. Red Mage was simple from the get-go and had a spot as the easier caster, so it doesn't have this problem.

[Aikaal]

It seems a bit excessive to quit an MMO because a single class wasn't to your tastes, I assume it wasn't the only issue you had with the game.

Red Mage to me was never a boring class despite it's simplicity, because the class's gameplay flow (usually described as 'The Waltz') always felt satisfying and cool. It rewards good positioning for backflipping out of AOEs and with it's current iteration focusing more on the Melee Caster aspect as well as being a great support it just feels fantastic.

Now, why does Red Mage get such praise but new Summoner is considered boring despite both classes having similar complexity?

This is the question Square should be asking themselves.

To simply describe SMN rotation. You're driving on a road. You go at 60mph at normal speed. You follow a straight line and it's very simple. The road is blue. Then after, you get to go front, right of left; each color is red, yellow or green. After your decision, you get to pick a second choice that wasn't the original color. Lastly the road turns the last color you didn't pick. Then your road turns orange and after orange you're given 3 choices again, red, yellow or green. Again, you go at 60mph normally, you can't leave that road, you can decide to drive slower or faster.

If you want to make it more complicated, then sometimes you'll see some red lights and you'll try to avoid them in order to go to the finishing line faster by either slowing down or driving faster.

The thing with the new SMN is you imbue yourself with 1 primal, once you're imbued with its power, you can't take it away or really do fancy stuff. In some respects, Summons in FF are usually really slow cast for really big numbers. This translate in an MMO af "you imbue yourself with Bahamut for 15 seconds" but you still press buttons; you can't summon anything else while under Bahamut.

Bahamut and Phoenix are required to access your elemental summons also so while it is a super simple rotation on paper, you're just always mad because you can't deviate too much.

[tearagion]

It seems a bit excessive to quit an MMO because a single class wasn't to your tastes, I assume it wasn't the only issue you had with the game.

Red Mage to me was never a boring class despite it's simplicity, because the class's gameplay flow (usually described as 'The Waltz') always felt satisfying and cool. It rewards good positioning for backflipping out of AOEs and with it's current iteration focusing more on the Melee Caster aspect as well as being a great support it just feels fantastic.

Now, why does Red Mage get such praise but new Summoner is considered boring despite both classes having similar complexity?

This is the question Square should be asking themselves.

Because RDM has much more complexity with regards to optimization, and to skill variety than SMN does. They aren't a similar complexity at all SMN is leagues simpler

[aveyond-dreams]

Now, why does Red Mage get such praise but new Summoner is considered boring despite both classes having similar complexity?

Because Red Mage having had inherently good and clear design from the start attracted a wider variety of people who were less obsessed with alleged prestige and complexity, as opposed to old SMN which applied continuous selective pressure until the only people left playing the job were those who were really really in love with the only Summoner fantasy available to us at the time or people who had more fun working harder for higher numbers when no other class had that much to juggle.

Both classes nowadays have great flow, Summoner could use some more summons and abilities but otherwise it's not that bad. The previous Summoner was systems stacked right on top of each other with dots as added busywork to gatekeep the "fun" factor from summoning Bahamut/Phoenix. Those who were playing an outlier job are now surprised that other jobs had left behind that sort of design philosophy back in 2017 when Stormblood wiped away most of the Heavensward-era spinning plates playstyles. I know when I abandoned Summoner after getting it to 80 in Shadowbringers I was shocked that no other job was in a state anywhere near to where SMN was, thank goodness.

[dinnertime]

Now, why does Red Mage get such praise but new Summoner is considered boring despite both classes having similar complexity?

This is the question Square should be asking themselves.

Because you can actually optimize on Red Mage and there's a skill ceiling to it.
There's more decision-making involved. There's a resource you have to manage. The rotation isn't one-note believe it or not.

The new SMN doesn't have those things. You can't optimize much, the skill ceiling is non-existent, the only decision-making you do is when to summon Ifrit, there's absolutely no resource to manage and the rotation is extremely straightforward (not like what it used to be.)

[Fellgon]

For me, SMN its better than ever!

[Sequora]

Because RDM has much more complexity with regards to optimization, and to skill variety than SMN does. They aren't a similar complexity at all SMN is leagues simpler

I don’t know if I would say much more complexity lol. Rose tinted goggles. RDM was very popular at release, but the biggest complaint by the player base was how simple and straight forward the rotation is.

That being said, SMN’s rotation is even more simple. RDM at least has procs to manage and the mana gauge.

6.0 SMN has nothing to manage. Just blow through your current charges and move to the next phase.

[tearagion]

I don’t know if I would say much more complexity lol. Rose tinted goggles. RDM was very popular at release, but the biggest complaint by the player base was how simple and straight forward the rotation is.

That being said, SMN’s rotation is even more simple. RDM at least has procs to manage and the mana gauge.

6.0 SMN has nothing to manage. Just blow through your current charges and move to the next phase.

The context was current RDM, who's optimization benefitted from the 80 > 50 mana change, and comparing a bit of complexity to no complexity is a large difference.

[dinnertime]

SMN wasn't even very complex since Stormblood anyway because they ultimately got rid of how DoTs can be a nightmare during Heavensward and gave us so many QoLs to apply DoTs ever since.

The only thing that hindered it was clunky pet response and pet actions ghosting which surprise surprise, still exists in new 6.0 SMN. And no, this didn't add 'complexity' and people didn't like that aspect of the gameplay. It was an annoyance every SMN player wanted fixed out.

By the time of Shadowbringers, you have so much mobility that it's more convenient to play. (Though, Shadowbringers SMN is where it goes downhill for different reasons)

It wasn't a hard job to play. The people who complain either didn't bother to understand how the job works or was still stuck to thinking it was the weird mess it was during ARR/HW days.
The little amount of 'complexity' it had before is now gone, and now it's just boring.