Is Leve EXP Far Too Generous Now?

[BluexBird]

No actually, it is not.

I don't know about other jobs, but I found leves on Armorer to be EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT!

You have to remember that when it comes to crafting leves, you are realistically turning potential gil into EXP. Those materials used to make the leve items can be sold on the Market Board, and usually DO get sold for quite a bit! But instead you're choosing not to do this in order to get your crafter leveled up.

This is the name of the game, and the other alternative is crafting collectibles. In terms of EXP gained over gil spent, collectibles were a FAR BETTER source of EXP. Maybe that was just for armorer.

Anyway, the point is, it doesn't really matter if it's overtuned or not - even if it was HALF what it is now, people with hundreds of millions of gil will still spend what it takes to get that easy EXP and have their crafter leveled up.

The only effect reducing leve EXP will have is putting a strain on poorer players. STOP IT!

[hynaku]

They could add some high level leve's for other than just gathering and crafting.

[TMW001]

Its perfectly fine some things are mind numbing to level the normal way and leves help speed it up.

[DPZ2]

It always amazes me when people complain that it isn't as hard as it used to be to level crafting or gathering. It was never hard. It was time-and-gil consuming, yes, but never hard.

It's as if one should be punished in order to get to level 90. That level 90 crafting is a right that only those Master Crafters who put in the time should get. As if they anticipate more profit on the Market Board if fewer players can reach a level where they might actually craft their own gear rather than be forced to pay inflated prices for their alt jobs.

The hard part comes after level 90. The tedium comes after level 90. The long time-and-gil consuming part comes after level 90. The "If I do this, I'll make a lot of gil" comes after level 90.

Who cares about how long it takes to get to level 90 in a crafting or gathering job?

[Raven2014]

I don't know about other jobs, but I found leves on Armorer to be EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT!

You have to remember that when it comes to crafting leves, you are realistically turning potential gil into EXP.

Yeah, this is what people tend to forget. Often time when I made too many and sell the extra item, they all sell very fast at a very good price. Like ... if instead of turning them to leve, if you just lvl purely through EXP gain via crafting and sell the item you make ... you'll make ten of millions in a few days easily. The reason I do not care about it because I already have a lot of gil, I care more about spending as least amount of time lvling as possible. Essentially we are buying EXP with the opportunity cost we could have made in gil.

The only effect reducing leve EXP will have is putting a strain on poorer players. STOP IT!

Tbh, I don't think many MMO players here are "rich" person in real life, and I bet a lot of them had at one point or another complain how the rich and elite are disconnected from the problem of the working class ... yet here we are. Stuffs like this or like in the other thread how Ultimate/savage player complain about dungeon/EX too easy. It kinda convince me that the only reason people are on certain side of class warfare is not due to their personality or sense of righteousness, but simply due to how much money they have.

[Fenefab]

Ok but why would leveling need to be more tedious and take even longer. If you feel like it's too fast, maybe slow down? lol

[Artemiz]

I'm going to be honest, I see a lot of bad faith arguments here. Strawmaning etc... One that is completely confusing me though is the idea that to make leves less effective is somehow a rich vs poor thing, that is utter nonsense. I have already laid out in the example I gave of how it actually cost about 5k gil to gain 2 levels, after leve reward was accounted for, and this included buying the mats off the marketboard. Please don't try to argue that 5k is a lof of gil, it's pocket change. The only reason why selling leve turn in items is good profit is because they are leve turn in items. They might sell for a decent profit anyway but not in anything like the same volume.

Nobody is broke in this game, and if by the grace of god you have managed that feat then it's all on you, the game throws money at everyone.

There is no ulterior motive here, I am not trying to tread down on the Proletariat or turn into George Soros, I just preferred the game a little bit more when things like crafting wasn't quite so face roll. That's it. Back in 2.0 I felt like I'd achieved a little victory by having a penta-melded omnicrafter, since then it has just got easier and easier and easier. It wasn't my greatest achievment in life back then either, but at least it took a little bit of effort, now though, with exp raining down so easy and rotations being so common online a semi trained chimp can get there in no time.

It's not just how much exp the leves give, it's how easy the synths are. What is the point of even designing and coding crafting gear 81-89? You don't need to be a specialist, you don't need food, you don't need HQ 80 gear, scrip gear is more than enough to smash everything out with ease, to 100% quality from NQ mats. All anyone has to do is faceroll these leves, then copy a rotation of the internet and boom, they are right up there with the best crafters.


I used to get a little satisfaction from being good at crafting in this game, sure it's side content, but I and many others enjoyed it. It's getting washed out so much now because so many people want it for almost zero effort that it's less fun for those who have enjoyed it for nearly a decade. I'm not saying it should take hundreds of millions of gil and 6 months to level a crafting class but by the same token I can't see why it has to be nerfed into the ground to please people who don't really like it. People are talking like they are entitled to a full suit of level 90 crafters but this is an MMO, everyone can have that but you have to grind it out. How hard that grind should be is what I wanted to discuss because in my opinion the "grind slider" is far far too much to one side.

[Raven2014]

I have already laid out in the example I gave of how it actually cost about 5k gil to gain 2 levels, after leve reward was accounted for, and this included buying the mats off the marketboard.

I recommend taking an economy class, because the concept of opportunity cost seem to be unknow to you. A few weeks ago leve item were selling for 50k+ per pop, in fact most of them still sell at that price now.

There is no ulterior motive here,

People who say this often do.

That's it. Back in 2.0 I felt like I'd achieved a little victory by having a penta-melded omnicrafter, since then it has just got easier and easier and easier.

It was also must easier for a few consortium and select few to corner the market back then. It's VERY obvious SE has tried to combat this issues various way. In 3.0 they used the rational of making things so hard to "slow down" the hardcore crafter so the "casual" had time to catch up. Remember how core mats were hidden node? Remember how it took 5 raw to process one? Remember how recipes took a ridiculous amount of stuffs to craft a simple thing? And once you grinded through the level, there is another grind awaited you at 60 that were so non-sensical that they had to get rid of mid way through HW? Do you know why, because it didn't slow down the hardcore crafters at all, they are resourceful and will just bulldoze anything in front of them with ease while the casual players looked at the grind and just gave up. The gap were widen, not close.


That's why 4.0 hit it with a big hammer and crafting become more accessible onward. And the people who were crying are the hardcore crafters who can no longer control the market with ease. You call it strawman argument? That'll exactly how it works in real life to. The gap between classes can not be closed by throwing down obstacle at the top, 'cause the rich will just dodge all of them with their resource anyway and the only one you impede are the people you try to help. Rather, the gap is closed by helping the bottom catching up with the top, which is exactly what the current model is doing.


I'm still an omni-crafter, but these days I don't do it to get rid or to make stuff to sale, for me it's a way for me not to spend money. Crafting gears as it is simply a matter of convenience, if you don't craft you have to pay a little premium for the convience which is reasonable. Before it was a choice of either go through the grind yourself, or pay through your nose to get stuffs from a small number of players on your server.


tl;dr: assuming you don't have ultirior motive, here is the main point: if the game push crafting to a decree that will make it interesting and challenge for people like you and me, it will more than likely discourage the new player from joining the market. SE want crafting a mainstream, not a niche.


Edit:

Nobody is broke in this game, and if by the grace of god you have managed that feat then it's all on you, the game throws money at everyone.

If you were a pentameld crafter all the way back to 2.0 I think I would safe to say your standard of who broke and not are skewl. Also, broke or rich is not just a matter of money in pocket, it's about their purchase power. These day, the reason why people with 5mil may not be broke because after week 1, they can buy good pieces for 300k-500k due to large availability. If gears went back to 3mil-5mil a piece like it was years ago, then someone with 10mil would still be broke.

[Artemiz]

I recommend taking an economy class, because the concept of opportunity cost seem to be unknow to you. A few weeks ago leve item were selling for 50k+ per pop, in fact most of them still sell at that price now.

I understand what opportunity cost is. You obviously missed the point I made that leve items only really have any decent profit behind them is because they are leve items. If they weren't leve items you might still make a decent profit, on the one you sell every 10 days.

People who say this often do.

Calm down, Freud. I said that because people were implying all sorts of intent that isn't there.

It was also must easier for a few consortium and select few to corner the market back then. It's VERY obvious SE has tried to combat this issues various way. In 3.0 they used the rational of making things so hard to "slow down" the hardcore crafter so the "casual" had time to catch up. Remember how core mats were hidden node? Remember how it took 5 raw to process one? Remember how recipes took a ridiculous amount of stuffs to craft a simple thing? And once you grinded through the level, there is another grind awaited you at 60 that were so non-sensical that they had to get rid of mid way through HW? Do you know why, because it didn't slow down the hardcore crafters at all, they are resourceful and will just bulldoze anything in front of them with ease while the casual players looked at the grind and just gave up. The gap were widen, not close.

You're talking like it was next to impossible to level back in 2.0, it wasn't, far from it. It just took more effort, that's all.

That's why 4.0 hit it with a big hammer and crafting become more accessible onward. And the people who were crying are the hardcore crafters who can no longer control the market with ease. You call it strawman argument? That'll exactly how it works in real life to. The gap between classes can not be closed by throwing down obstacle at the top, 'cause the rich will just dodge all of them with their resource anyway and the only one you impede are the people you try to help. Rather, the gap is closed by helping the bottom catching up with the top, which is exactly what the current model is doing.

I'm still an omni-crafter, but these days I don't do it to get rid or to make stuff to sale, for me it's a way for me not to spend money. Crafting gears as it is simply a matter of convenience, if you don't craft you have to pay a little premium for the convience which is reasonable. Before it was a choice of either go through the grind yourself, or pay through your nose to get stuffs from a small number of players on your server.

Nobody, other than botters have controlled the market since 2.0. Even back then, crafting was not only far more fun but also much easier and cheaper than it was in a game like FFXI. You could make an argument that in 2005 or so maxed out goldsmiths were controlling the markets in FFXI, but never in this game has it ever been anything like that.

tl;dr: assuming you don't have ultirior motive, here is the main point: if the game push crafting to a decree that will make it interesting and challenge for people like you and me, it will more than likely discourage the new player from joining the market. SE want crafting a mainstream, not a niche.

An extreme argument again, why do people have to make these kinds of arguments? I don't get it. There is a happy middle ground between hardcore grind only and participation awards. I think they have moved the dial far too much in favour of participation awards.

[Raven2014]

You're talking like it was next to impossible to level back in 2.0, it wasn't, far from it. It just took more effort, that's all.

I wrote 3.0, which is when they experimented making crafting a lot harder and how it went badly ... why you keep bringing in 2.0 ...?

Nobody, other than botters have controlled the market since 2.0.

Botters control the mat market, not the craft market except consumable. If you insist otherwise I gonna have to ask for proof. This is typical not just FF14 but all other MMO as well. I know it for a fact because I know people who are part on consortium who do it, and myself did it too in other MMO. It never made sense to "bot" the gear market, the traffic simply is not fast enough for it. Also gears wouldn't have cost 3mil-5mil if it was bot.

Botting is an issue, but it's not a bogeyman to all perceived problem.

An extreme argument again, why do people have to make these kinds of arguments? I don't get it. There is a happy middle ground between hardcore grind only and participation awards. I think they have moved the dial far too much in favour of participation awards.

It's not an extreme argument, it's histocally proven.

It's funny, just last week I was talking with someone in discord. He wasn't even a new player, just someone who had largely ignore crafting. He was fretting about making enough in time for 6.1 since he would like a chance at a medium house. And you know what, in that convo I was assuming YOUR PoV, went on and on about how easy/casual it is, even citing how it would take me no time at all to level crafting on my alt ... and I think I managed to piss him off. Other people chiming in and pointed it's not just about the resource I have, but also knowledge and the technical know how. New players don't see thing through the same lens you do.