Parsing unfair but okay?

[Aelin_Ashryver]

Mine is a static of friends, last static we were matched in our fc all varying skill level. I would just pass on a static demanding parses, they can literally do one extreme with you and see if you are decent or not if they want.

[Gyson]

You've been around since at least 2014. You realize parsing has been around since before then, and even FFLogs goes back to HW. In essence, this has been around since the beginning. Since you have experience, let me ask you this. If you didn't have a parser, how would you have known who to have "that talk" to about DPS? Sure, people might not fail mechanics, but damage can still be low enough to not hit enrage. How do you determine if you have a weak link or not if everyone thinks it's not them? Take it one step further, how would one even know where they need to improve?

Yes, I know it's been around for a long time. The difference is it wasn't talked about openly back then, except to tell others not to talk about it openly. But now we have threads where players are saying they can't apply for a static without providing a parse, and most people seem more interested in trying to normalize that and parse usage. Six years ago most of the responses would have been along the lines of "That's against TOS, report that if it becomes an issue, <3". We just seemed less tolerant of parses being used for more than personal development.

I had to explain to other people that their DPS needed improvement in games like WoW because DPS checks became the norm there, primarily because everyone abused parsers into the ground and so the developers developed content around DPS checks more and more to counter that. I would really prefer that not happen here.

They don't say "No third party tools, but Discord is ok".

Also.. Yoshi-P has literally stated that external voice chat programs are not prohibited.

[Endariel]

Yes, I know it's been around for a long time. The difference is it wasn't talked about openly back then, except to tell others not to talk about it openly. But now we have threads where players are saying they can't apply for a static without providing a parse, and most people seem more interested in trying to normalize that and parse usage. Six years ago most of the responses would have been along the lines of "That's against TOS, report that if it becomes an issue, <3". We just seemed less tolerant of parses being used for more than personal development.

I had to explain to other people that their DPS needed improvement in games like WoW because DPS checks became the norm there, primarily because everyone abused parsers into the ground and so the developers developed content around DPS checks more and more to counter that. I would really prefer that not happen here.




Also.. Yoshi-P has literally stated that external voice chat programs are not prohibited.

But you have hard enrages here. You are set on a clock to kill a boss. You need the DPS.
Seriously, is playing the game as intended is now "toxic wow elitism" whilst curebotting is the norm?

You won't clear an ultimate with 2 afk healers or a freestyle Sam or an ice blm

[RitsukoSonoda]

Another of these threads that basically amount to people making excuses as to why they don't or shouldn't follow rules they don't like or find inconvenient.

[Lauren]

I'm assuming you didn't mean it this way, but I read this and it feels like we've reached a point where someone's performance is being shamed publicly on the official FFXIV forums, and I'm immediately thinking "this is why we can't have nice things".

Thank you for your good faith assumption .

My intent wasn't to shame anyone. OP has stated they have no parses and are looking for a MC static, a simple two second search on their name provided results. So I'm not sure if OPs thread was, in all honestly, with good intentions. Either they are extremely nieve to not search their own name OR are being intentionally vague about the results. Put that down to whatever you might consider the likely result

Everyone can improve. I cannot scoff at someone who parses low now, who, with the willingness to improve, can easily change it to much higher numbers with the tools infront of them. OPs Shadowbringer's parses are not the best (if we're being totally honest) but their Endwalker Extreme Primal ones have already seen significant improvement. So I hope that OP can argue this across to any static they apply to in the future - should "showing parses" be a requirement and enjoy their time raiding. If not, there are many console-specific or more casual raid groups who do not engage in parsing - however OP has mentioned a MC specific static... so I'm not entierly sure what they were expecting.

I really don't care if someone uses a parser to improve their personal performance. The problem I have with it is that people try to sell the idea of a parser as a self improvement tool but it always evolves into something far worse - like judging the performance of another player. I've used parsers in other MMOs, both for myself and to decide who does and doesn't go raiding with a team. I have had to be "that guy" that has uncomfortable conversations with other players about their DPS whilst explaining why they're not being slotted again this week.

I understand the upset parsing can cause for users who do not wish to be publically searched. FFlogs does have an opt out feature, which I encourage anyone who is not a fan of the practise to register for. It not automatically being "opt out" though is not a decision I stand for or against. It does not effect me personally and I have mine public.

Personally, for me, guides sometimes don't give me enough raw information I need to figure out where I'm at. I'd like to be semi-decent at the game and so I check out what I should be aiming for and try hit as much as I can within that. Sometimes I fail miserably and that's okay. I can only improve and improve should I wish to! And I try to when I can.

As someone who has ignored parses (though I do search) when recruiting myself, I know that as long as the willingness to learn is there, then we will do fine. However, some people want specific proof they are getting the "real deal" when hiring new players (we don't all have the luxury of time to trial people), and I think parsing is fair in that regard.

We justify it by saying that it's for the good of the group, but somehow parsing almost always results in toxicity or stupidity (e.g. ignoring mechanics in the pursuit of parsing higher than everyone else).

This is your personal opinion. Other people enjoy the various aspects of improving and min-maxing. Just because you do not enjoy it, does not mean there isn't an audience for it. I play with a mixed group of people often and there has been no toxicity from the parsing they partake in, and we'd had some fun goofy runs trying to figure out faster ways to keep uptime DPS and it's the way we enjoy it. We've never forced it on other players mind - I'm aware there are people like that but you need to be aware that there are far more players who parse for fun and enjoyment without toxicity.

I'd personally prefer not having that happen in this game.

And I like having it. So it's just one of those things No reason to get angry about it ♥

I keep watching players pushing the line in FFXIV a little more each year and trying to normalize different aspects of parsing every step of the way, and anyone that has been down this road enough times knows it's leading to an increasingly toxic environment. It also can lead to a vicious cycle where developers are creating more and more content for a minority at the expense of the majority, and we eventually end up with a soulless game that has dumped all it's eggs into top-tier high-end raiding. Kind of like WoW.. which I left years ago because I could see the writing on the wall. I would prefer that not happen here.

I do not personally agree with you. Parsing in WoW isn't why WoW is toxic. The way the game is specifically designed in terms of a timer, hard-grinding content that FF doesn't have as much as, more PvP focused community etc. FFXIV has had parsing since week 1 and I have always partook in it.

I think it's just one of those things where you just need to accept that people will do it. Me? I personally don't like the mods which make your character do sexual things (as an example) but as long as I don't see it, I don't care for it.

[Bellsong]

What parses can tell you: A very general overview of how well a person knows how play their job, their grip of the opener/s, their average DPS across several fights to see for consistency.

What a parse can't tell you: A persons temperament under stress, how quickly or slowly they learn a new mechanic or adapt to change, how well they can communicate an idea, how they fit in with the group as a whole.

It's perfectly fair for a static to want parses upfront, they can't tell you everything about the player, but it can at least tell you quickly and effectively if they have the technical skill to meet the groups goals. But it's definitely not the only thing that matters in a static. Even if you have incredible parses if you don't fit in with the group, you probably won't be staying very long.

More often than not if things become toxic over DPS it's because there was a miscommunication of expectations. Not because a tool is displaying the reality of numbers.

[SaberMaxwell]

For trying to get into a midcore static or above, your FFLogs is like your resume. For better or for worse it's a good first impression you make on a group you're going to be promising a lot of time to, and in turn they're promising a lot of time to you. The trial process takes a lot of time, usually several raid days (read for some groups: weeks) and because of that filtering for a specific kind of player is very helpful for reducing the amount of time trialing.

Most midcore and up will follow up FFLogs research with an interview and a few trials. I've participated in more than a few trials both for my static and as a stand in for a friend's group, many in Ultimate itself, to see how people get along. For our own purposes because we prefer to go blind on prog, we test the trial player's ability to puzzle through mechanics and ability to communicate effectively moreso than their actual parsing ability, but that's not a universal thing.

If you're denied a static, you're not denied content. You are always able to pug extreme and Savage content, and there are communities dedicated to pugging even Ultimate content. No, being denied a static means being denied other people's time, and being saved from wasting yours.

Square Enix can never and will never force players to get along with each other. Chances are that if you were denied at stage 1 of the process like that you wouldn't enjoy being in that group's presence either.

[HyoMinPark]

Yes, I know it's been around for a long time. The difference is it wasn't talked about openly back then, except to tell others not to talk about it openly. But now we have threads where players are saying they can't apply for a static without providing a parse, and most people seem more interested in trying to normalize that and parse usage. Six years ago most of the responses would have been along the lines of "That's against TOS, report that if it becomes an issue, <3". We just seemed less tolerant of parses being used for more than personal development.

There are statics out there that do not ask or require logs. OP stated they wanted to find a midcore static, and midcore is where you start finding groups that care about performance. The best way to judge that outside of a trial is via logs: analyzing consistency of a player, what they’re good at or need help with (e.g., buff alignment, underhealing/overhealing, rotation optimization, etc.).. It’s not done out of toxicity. It’s done to try and find players that fit in with the static and their goals.

This was around six years ago. It wasn’t talked about here because threads mentioning logs or parsers or any third-party took were immediately deleted and the players banned. But it was talked about elsewhere. And there were statics requiring logs for entry.

I had to explain to other people that their DPS needed improvement in games like WoW because DPS checks became the norm there, primarily because everyone abused parsers into the ground and so the developers developed content around DPS checks more and more to counter that. I would really prefer that not happen here.

While most content doesn’t have DPS checks, this game is already all about damage. Things like crowd control and debuffs have long since been removed. Damage during fights is scripted, and most of them barely tickle once you start getting decent gear; so healing and mitigation requirements are fairly low. All that’s left is damage. That said, some content could do with DPS checks. Not Savage-level enrages, but I’ve been in fights where it’s just war of attrition for upwards of 15 minutes.

(Though, fun fact: some of the normal modes actually have enrages—they’re just so generous or so ridiculously easy that you never see them—Alte Roite normal actually enrages at the same time as his Savage fight; A12N has an enrage. They seem to have stopped putting them in after Sigmascape Normal…though the 20-minute Guardian runs I have seen suggest that was likely a bad idea... Even Ultima in Orbonne Monastery has a soft enrage at around 13-14 minutes: she starts using her tank buster every other attack, and you simply won’t be able to out-live it. I had the pleasure of finding this out at the end of SB, and it was honestly a wild run.)

[LittleImp]

Yes, I know it's been around for a long time. The difference is it wasn't talked about openly back then, except to tell others not to talk about it openly. But now we have threads where players are saying they can't apply for a static without providing a parse, and most people seem more interested in trying to normalize that and parse usage. Six years ago most of the responses would have been along the lines of "That's against TOS, report that if it becomes an issue, <3". We just seemed less tolerant of parses being used for more than personal development.

Honest question;

How much Savage+ difficulty content have you completed in the last few years? Do you pug often?

[Gyson]

But you have hard enrages here. You are set on a clock to kill a boss. You need the DPS.
Seriously, is playing the game as intended is now "toxic wow elitism" whilst curebotting is the norm?

You won't clear an ultimate with 2 afk healers or a freestyle Sam or an ice blm

I have no problem with people working to improve their personal performance to beat an enrage in top-tier content. But I do see a problem when someone calls out someone else out for poor damage when we're in a dungeon daily that took 25 minutes to clear instead of 20. I have zero clue as to what's going on with each player in real life on the other side of the screen. Maybe they're mostly watching Netflix and actually wasting our time.. or maybe they have a legitimate disability and are trying their best to make it work. But the person in the group beating them over the head with the parse doesn't know (or apparently care about) the difference. And the more we normalize parse usage the more that seems to happen.

If people just used parses to improve their personal performance everything would be fine. But let's be honest.. the chances of no one using a parse as a weapon to attack someone else is pretty much zero.