Endwalker's story had me, but lost me. Ethical issues especially (spoilers)

[Cleretic]

If I can add in my two cents here, there was a bit of dialogue at some point in the game stating that our Azem had not only walked out on the Convocation when they decided to summon Zodiark, but had also refused to join Venat and her followers for the summoning of Hydaelyn. I don't know that they would have intentionally mentioned that if they wanted to us to be super duper on Hydaelyn's side.

For a minor clarification on the clarification, it's not that Azem outwardly refused to join Venat's crew, it's that they received no response at all. Which could mean a lot of things (but is unlikely to mean 'they dead'). Which is probably the right angle to do, because they want to make it clear that neither of those plans were necessarily 'the right thing to do' at the time; in the present day it's quite clear that Hydaelyn's plan was the one with legs and too late to act on any arguments anyway, but in the time of the Ancients it was a very present and very unclear question, and the entire direction about that part of the story is that it's not entirely clear who was morally right.

Azem is basically meant to be our analog in the Ancient days (whether or not we actually want that). Because of that, Azem actually making a definitive statement on either side would be essentially declaring that statement to be 'ours', and therefore the correct take. If Azem directly and explicitly rejected Venat's offer, and we are Azem... well, that must mean that we should reject her, surely.

To avoid that, it works better to have Azem basically opting out of the whole debate without comment.

[RoroCookies]

I will say I'm amazed at how many people on the official forums seem to absolutely hate this game and the story compared to other places. Most people enjoy the game on other sites I've visited, but it feels like there's a ton of unhappy people all on this forum.

I see the people talking about the lore and criticize it more as people that love the game but what it to do better when it comes to story elements. Not so much that they hate it, they just have disagreements with it. Some of my favorite games I’ve also been rather critical of because I love them and wish for them to improve.

[h-alpha]

For a minor clarification on the clarification, it's not that Azem outwardly refused to join Venat's crew, it's that they received no response at all. Which could mean a lot of things (but is unlikely to mean 'they dead'). Which is probably the right angle to do, because they want to make it clear that neither of those plans were necessarily 'the right thing to do' at the time; in the present day it's quite clear that Hydaelyn's plan was the one with legs and too late to act on any arguments anyway, but in the time of the Ancients it was a very present and very unclear question, and the entire direction about that part of the story is that it's not entirely clear who was morally right.

Azem is basically meant to be our analog in the Ancient days (whether or not we actually want that). Because of that, Azem actually making a definitive statement on either side would be essentially declaring that statement to be 'ours', and therefore the correct take. If Azem directly and explicitly rejected Venat's offer, and we are Azem... well, that must mean that we should reject her, surely.

To avoid that, it works better to have Azem basically opting out of the whole debate without comment.

Thank you kindly for that clarification to my clarification!

[Veloran]

I think this kinda sums up how I feel to some degree. I liked Venat a lot of first when Elpis first started, but afterwards I grew to dislike her actions.

Well, for all intents and purposes she was supporting the instigator of the apocalypse (Hermes) with her inaction. He himself says that if the others retained their memories they would have the advantage and it wouldn't be a "fair" contest, so Venat not telling anyone or doing anything was just going along with his plan. If it had just been a branching timeline or she too had lost her memories this wouldn't even be an issue.

[EdwinLi]

For a minor clarification on the clarification, it's not that Azem outwardly refused to join Venat's crew, it's that they received no response at all. Which could mean a lot of things (but is unlikely to mean 'they dead'). Which is probably the right angle to do, because they want to make it clear that neither of those plans were necessarily 'the right thing to do' at the time; in the present day it's quite clear that Hydaelyn's plan was the one with legs and too late to act on any arguments anyway, but in the time of the Ancients it was a very present and very unclear question, and the entire direction about that part of the story is that it's not entirely clear who was morally right.

Azem is basically meant to be our analog in the Ancient days (whether or not we actually want that). Because of that, Azem actually making a definitive statement on either side would be essentially declaring that statement to be 'ours', and therefore the correct take. If Azem directly and explicitly rejected Venat's offer, and we are Azem... well, that must mean that we should reject her, surely.

To avoid that, it works better to have Azem basically opting out of the whole debate without comment.

Well this is one reason why I think they may explain what Azem was doing during the Ancient times that caused him to not be involved with the whole Hydaelyn/Zodiark/Meteion events for Season 2 Main Storyline.

While Azem being mostly absent from being involved in the events keeps him/her at a players choice on opinions since he/she is meant to be WoL's past life self, there is still a big question about what could have caused Azem to not be involved.

Considering Azem is aware about WoL as his/her future self revealed in 6.0 Raid story, I suspect whatever Azem may have been focused on may involve the Season 2 antagonist if SE choose to have events of Azem's life during Ancient time play a important role for Season 2 storyline.

Emet words about how it is WoL's job to continue Azem's work to explore the world and discover its secret feels like a possible hint Season 2 may also focus on exploring more about who Azem was along with a possible ancient threat that Azem may have been focused that forced him/her to take a separate journey from the whole Hydalyen/Zodiark/Meteion events.

They have plenty of opportunity with this in Season 2 if Azem's Crystal starts playing a more important role in Season 2 beyond just being the reason why WoL has a full player party fighting against certain Trial bosses.

[Cleretic]

Well, for all intents and purposes she was supporting the instigator of the apocalypse (Hermes) with her inaction. He himself says that if the others retained their memories they would have the advantage and it wouldn't be a "fair" contest, so Venat not telling anyone or doing anything was just going along with his plan. If it had just been a branching timeline or she too had lost her memories this wouldn't even be an issue.

But also that him retaining his memories would give them an unfair disadvantage, which is actually a more important factor because Hermes is the only guy in a position of power equipped to know what's going on when he sees it.

Venat needs to keep the information secret enough that Hermes doesn't learn this is his fault, because if he does he'll either switch sides or drop out entirely.

[Iscah]

I've said before – I think it was a huge mistake in the storytelling to have Venat keep her memories and act on them, carrying out her plan "because the time-traveller said so".

She should have been memory-wiped with the others and later objected to Zodiark for independent reasons, perceiving some kind of design flaw that called for the creation of Hydaelyn to address it.

If lost memories are regained upon death and return to the aetherial sea, then she could still regain those memories upon becoming Hydaelyn and retreating to the sea.

[LalafellDown]

You don't need to live in a war zone, and lose people, in order to grow wiser. It sounds like something somebody living in a comfortable advanced society would say.

Not talking about wisdom. The zodiark side suicided because they wanted a quick way out from their problem. They gave up and refused to overcome their problems. They wanted a return to their blissful life but refused to confront their situation.

It’s implied that Azem found a way to solve the problem but was too late and was sundered. This we have an example that there was in fact a way.

Venat horrified with the knowledge that her people are willing to die out completely. Which out annihilate the planet like all other planets, broke their souls to save them. As shattered souls they we’re going to survive long enough to eventually be strong enough to face the problem.

The theme was that all races on different planets, all gave up from every lasting bliss to annihilation through war. They all eventually came to nothing.

Watching the story I related the ancients to my life. When struggles come up we tend to get depressed, anxious and filled with fear. What comes out of us is the habits we built over time. Being anxious to the point of disparity is a habit. Relating myself to them I found indescribable peace, joy and hope that only comes from God. All impossible has become possible. Everything that I seek was already given to me before I even started the journey. “Today.” Said God, “ I give it into your hands.” Who can take away what was given to me or who can say I cannot pass if I’m supposed to be there? Not sure if anyone can relate the light in these clay pots.

[Veloran]

But also that him retaining his memories would give them an unfair disadvantage, which is actually a more important factor because Hermes is the only guy in a position of power equipped to know what's going on when he sees it.

Venat needs to keep the information secret enough that Hermes doesn't learn this is his fault, because if he does he'll either switch sides or drop out entirely.

Setting aside the fact that Venat could have just told them without telling him, Hermes already told them everything relevant to the situation that he knew, and Venat already knew the solutions they needed to stop the Final Days - Before 90% of the planet was wiped out even. She basically allowed millions to die, declared the test failed, and then killed everyone else.

Not talking about wisdom. The zodiark side suicided because they wanted a quick way out from their problem. They gave up and refused to overcome their problems. They wanted a return to their blissful life but refused to confront their situation.

This is a bit of a tiring argument given there are literally quests in this game where we help somebody commit eternal soul-suicide.

[Yukijin]

I might be wrong but the way I saw it is that no one in game, as far as I know, knows about what happens really when you mess with the past. Sure, G'raha was surprised to still stand after saving the first from the Sin Eaters, but he wasn't 100% sure what happened to the future he came from. It was all speculative.
We only know about the branching timeline because it was given to us through the side stories, in a way that only we, the player and not the WoL or any of the NPC of the current time lines, knew about. So I never assumed our WoL would have that knowledge and act accordingly. For all I knew, as my character, changing the past could have grave consequences to the future I was trying to save (and g'raha would have the same assumption thus elidubus, having his memories, could have acted on said assumptions).

Ofc if we were presented through msq with the knowledge we were given on the side stories, my views on what happened on Elpis might have been different from what they are now.