DRK feels weak

[Somnolence]

Yeah... despite "feeling weak" and jank especially in dungeons, its looking to be one of the stronger is not strongest tank for raids and trials, dps and overall mitigation. Dunno what else to say, if you want to feel beastly in the casual content as of now War is supreme.

We don't know if this is intended. Remains to be seen if devs don't homogenize tank dps in savage patch.

[pastry777]

The battle system is balanced around full party content and always has been.


You forgot Thrill (effectively 20% mitigation). Most Endwalker double pulls are easily handled with just Thrill+Shake+Equil and 1 or 2 Bloodwhetting casts. WAR has the most defensives.



What? They have Holmgang - an objectively superior invuln to Living Dead.

Like say WAR has Vengeance+Whet, and WAR has Corundum from cotank, that's 59% mitigation. Add Thrill, 20% increase in max HP, that's almost a TBN itself (plus 400p shield from Whet). How is that spike damage compared to any other tank?

Compare to DRK. Let's say ShadowWall+TBN+Oblation+Corundum. This is 54% mitigation, plus 25% shield. Yes, TBN is the most potent mitigation for singlehit busters, but busters are not balanced around TBN. They're survivable with any tank comp.

First of all, I didn't forget Thrill because Thrill is most definitely not mitigation. You're confusing the term mitigation with something else entirely. It's not reducing any damage that is being inflicted to your health pool. It increases the WAR's maximum HP by 20% and heals it for the same amount in addition to providing 20% healing bonus from healing actions. You're still taking 100% of the incoming damage. There's a reason why WARs double health pool in 2.0 got scrapped; they couldn't take hits. Sure a WAR can handle pulls with Thrill + Shake + Equil + Bloodwhetting, but it doesn't change that fact that they are taking insane amounts of damage. WAR doesn't have the most defensives, they have the most/best sustain out of the tanks.

Mitigation = Incoming damage reduction
Mitigation =/= Self-Sustain
Spike Damage = Massive amount of damage dealt over a very short period of time.

Secondly, never have I argued that Living Dead was better than Holmgang (vice versa), and I can't see the association between this and what you quoted ("people don't realize WARs are taking huge spike damage.").

[pastry777]

My arguments were based on Dungeon settings (due to OP's stance as a casual player) in which WAR (along with PLD) do take insane amounts of spike damage since they can exhaust their mitigation resources much sooner than DRK and GNB. Since you're bringing up scenarios with tank compositions, lets put some HP and damage to your mitigation numbers. To make it simple, lets round the 47,000 damage I stated in my original response to 50,000 with a health pool of 72,000 as that's an estimate of where tanks are at currently at unbuffed. I'll even add in the 0.2% for WAR (72144).

WAR -> Vengeance + Bloodwhetting + Heart of Corundum from GNB = 59% after scaling. 50,000 - 59% = 20,500 --> 20,500 - 8% shield (400 potency shield = approximately 5300-5800 at ilvl 578 - I'll use the highest value) = 14,700 damage that's deducted from health pool after mitigations. You can add Thrill to this and it's not going to change the fact that more damage is taken because Thrill has 0 value when it comes to soaking or reducing incoming damage.

DRK - > Shadow Wall + Oblation + Heart of Corundum = 54% after scaling. 50,000 - 54% = 23,000 --> 23,000 - 25% shield (18,000) = 5,000 damage that's deducted from health pool after mitigations.

[ThorneDynasty]

If you're referring to my argument, it's simple. Self-sustain =/= mitigation. Lets hear your reasoning as to why they should be counted?

If hit points aren't mitigation, then temporary hit points aren't either. TBN mitigates exactly 0%.

[DarkDredgen]

I actually felt DRK could exhaust its abilities quicker than WAR and I am pretty sure it's because I do not see TBN as a stand alone mitigation in dungeons. It lasts maybe 2-4 seconds, depending on tick times, the mob and whatever else you got on. Its just a little something extra to help you along while the 20%-40% uptime is your bread and butter (it's usually 30%-40%, 20% when you're running out towards the end of a pull with an oblation + reprisal). AD can also be emergency reserve or used during 20% phase to help out, depends on situation.

Bloodwhetting feels much more impactful, damage mitigation and all the healing. It can be used as a complete stand alone mitigation unlike TBN so it feels like you have more access to an emergency button often.

DRK feels OK when you maintain 20-40% defensive boost + full uptime on TBN, but it doesn't have any room for error. WAR feels abit more fluid and feels like it has room for error. Just my experiences with both taking them to 90.

But, I will say, DRK is nowhere near as bad as some people are making it out to be.

You just need to be on point with it, accidently pressing Rampart while Shadowwall is up or vice versa while fumbling for salted earth proc is going to get you wiped on the next pull for example...trust me xD

It feels great in boss fights and Pandemonium (about to tackle Ex trials), as expected, TBN comes into its element and still saving countless DPS/Healers.

You just have to be on point in dungeons and nail your defensive rotation. Still, I wouldn't turn my nose up to some extra sustainability being added, but I can absolutely live with out it too.

If I was going to suggest something for casual use, I'd probably say add some sort of healing with TBN. Make it feel impactful in high/sustained damage situations. Doesn't need to be Bloodwhetting 2, just a little something to give TBN a kick.

Shadowbringers is growing on me too...Its still Flood 3 and I'm still not happy..but it does feel nice I guess.

Edit: oblation has grown on me too, great to have two charges. Useful with TBN for tank busters and useful paired with a Rampart/reprisal. Not sure I would like it simply added to TBN, I like the utility of having it separate.

[Duskane]

My arguments were based on Dungeon settings (due to OP's stance as a casual player) in which WAR (along with PLD) do take insane amounts of spike damage since they can exhaust their mitigation resources much sooner than DRK and GNB. Since you're bringing up scenarios with tank compositions, lets put some HP and damage to your mitigation numbers. To make it simple, lets round the 47,000 damage I stated in my original response to 50,000 with a health pool of 72,000 as that's an estimate of where tanks are at currently at unbuffed. I'll even add in the 0.2% for WAR (72144).

WAR -> Vengeance + Bloodwhetting + Heart of Corundum from GNB = 59% after scaling. 50,000 - 59% = 20,500 --> 20,500 - 8% shield (400 potency shield = approximately 5300-5800 at ilvl 578 - I'll use the highest value) = 14,700 damage that's deducted from health pool after mitigations. You can add Thrill to this and it's not going to change the fact that more damage is taken because Thrill has 0 value when it comes to soaking or reducing incoming damage.

DRK - > Shadow Wall + Oblation + Heart of Corundum = 54% after scaling. 50,000 - 54% = 23,000 --> 23,000 - 25% shield (18,000) = 5,000 damage that's deducted from health pool after mitigations.

enemies damage to tanks is not % so thrill of war is extra mitigation and because your HP is higher so is your self healing so you end up being harder to kill regardless
it is effectively the same when tank stance had there own effects Warriors was granted more HP while DRK and PLD were granted more defense and it was the same

[Duskane]

the big problem with DRK mitigation in dungeons that it is all AND nothing
you can only rely on your % mitigation like Oblation,rampart and Shadow wall because TBN gives you 2 seconds of breathing room before it breaks and then your back to nothing,while every other tank gets extra benefits to shorter CD regardless and just have extra tools for comfort
holy sheltron you are still getting the block effect and the regen once mitigation runs out
Blood whetting you still get raw healing once shield breaks and mitigation runs out
Heart of Corundum you still have 15% mitigation once your heal is popped and other 15% is done
Dark knight gets "free" flood of shadow once your 25% shield breaks

[ThorneDynasty]

But healing isn't mitigation, stop counting it, it doesn't count. Only yellow hit points are mitigation. Thrill of Battle isn't yellow so it doesn't count either.

[Fubous]

I actually felt DRK could exhaust its abilities quicker than WAR and I am pretty sure it's because I do not see TBN as a stand alone mitigation in dungeons. It lasts maybe 2-4 seconds, depending on tick times, the mob and whatever else you got on. Its just a little something extra to help you along while the 20%-40% uptime is your bread and butter (it's usually 30%-40%, 20% when you're running out towards the end of a pull with an oblation + reprisal). AD can also be emergency reserve or used during 20% phase to help out, depends on situation.

Bloodwhetting feels much more impactful, damage mitigation and all the healing. It can be used as a complete stand alone mitigation unlike TBN so it feels like you have more access to an emergency button often.

DRK feels OK when you maintain 20-40% defensive boost + full uptime on TBN, but it doesn't have any room for error. WAR feels abit more fluid and feels like it has room for error. Just my experiences with both taking them to 90.

But, I will say, DRK is nowhere near as bad as some people are making it out to be.

You just need to be on point with it, accidently pressing Rampart while Shadowwall is up or vice versa while fumbling for salted earth proc is going to get you wiped on the next pull for example...trust me xD

It feels great in boss fights and Pandemonium (about to tackle Ex trials), as expected, TBN comes into its element and still saving countless DPS/Healers.

You just have to be on point in dungeons and nail your defensive rotation. Still, I wouldn't turn my nose up to some extra sustainability being added, but I can absolutely live with out it too.

If I was going to suggest something for casual use, I'd probably say add some sort of healing with TBN. Make it feel impactful in high/sustained damage situations. Doesn't need to be Bloodwhetting 2, just a little something to give TBN a kick.

Shadowbringers is growing on me too...Its still Flood 3 and I'm still not happy..but it does feel nice I guess.

Edit: oblation has grown on me too, great to have two charges. Useful with TBN for tank busters and useful paired with a Rampart/reprisal. Not sure I would like it simply added to TBN, I like the utility of having it separate.

I agree, it's quite enjoyable to play at 90, especially in the extremes. I think the playstyle, while flawed in many ways, is very satisfying. It definitely needs a bit more QOL and spice put into it, tho; enhanced unmend, salt and darkness and the living shadow traits are pretty pathetic in comparison to other job additions.

[Dracosavarian]

But healing isn't mitigation, stop counting it, it doesn't count. Only yellow hit points are mitigation. Thrill of Battle isn't yellow so it doesn't count either.

Nuance. I would argue any tool or utility that keeps a tank above 0 hp is worth counting.