So you're telling me..

[ZiraZ]

I literally told you I was trolling you on multiple occasions.

"It doesn't count as a lie if I say it was trolling"
ok liar

[Akiudo]

What I'm saying is that for a selfish DPS class to be pragmatically competitive with the datasets we get it needs to be marginally ahead in average rDPS. Without a lead it's probably (read: given the nature of higher coordination required for buff classes and the fact that parses in general do not utilize these timings well) not good enough at accomplishing its only job.

and if samurai is top until 90-95% than it is "ahead in average dps" the original argument was that samurai needs to be ahead when we look at the top, you can't only look at the top 1% and than talk about averages.

The whole point of sam needing to have top rdps and adps is to make up for the fact the raid doesn't get any buffs from them....rdps is contribution to the raid, not just personal buffs.

but what buffs are we talking here ?

utility buffs ? in that case i allready said they should be accounted for (meaning less damage the more actual utility you offer) , i.e. the argument was never against samurai being above reaper (as reaper offers a group heal that samurai does not) but against the notion that it needs to do more because other classes have damage buffs.

or are we talking damage buffs ? in that case "perfect balance" would mean that every class has the exact same rpds at every percentile (obviously not realistic) so the next best thing would be "highest rdps class depends on circumstances/level of play and not "samurai is allways top" which is what you get if you let samurai have the highest rdps when at the actual top because the drop off off buff classes is comperatively steep.

[tearagion]

and if samurai is top until 90-95% than it is "ahead in average dps" the original argument was that samurai needs to be ahead when we look at the top, you can't only look at the top 1% and than talk about averages.

What are you talking about? Buff classes scale more with player skill, assuming the only variable is cooperation (something that deteriorates usually the lower you go) SAM and BLM should be comparatively better the lower you go.

[Akiudo]

What are you talking about? Buff classes scale more with player skill, assuming the only variable is cooperation (something that deteriorates usually the lower you go) SAM and BLM should be comparatively better the lower you go.

exactly, better the lower you go, meaning not best at the absolute top otherwise they will allways be best at every level. that was my whole argument from the very beginning.

[tearagion]

exactly, better the lower you go, meaning not at the top at the absolute top otherwise they will allways be at the top at every level. that was my whole argument from the very beginning.

The 'absolute top' can never be reliably measured, so SAM MCH and BLM should be marginally higher in rDPS

[Akiudo]

The 'absolute top' can never be reliably measured, so SAM MCH and BLM should be marginally higher in rDPS

so your solution to them potentially never being at the top at say the 98%+ level is to simply turn them into the class that is literally allways the strongest and than call that balance ?

[tearagion]

so your solution to them potentially never being at the top at say the 98%+ level is to simply turn them into the class that is literally allways the strongest and than call that balance ?

What? "Marginally" as in, they aren't beaten by multiplicative buffs, but also aren't the clear dominant choice for every fight or player. Beyond that you get into other arguments like BLM should be the single highest rDPS in the game because they face the most challenges with positioning and uptime, but maybe some fights are less kind to melee etc. As it is now from a comfort-agnostic point of view there's no reason to take a SAM or a BLM over a RPR or a MNK because they don't contribute as much rDPS or utility, as such RPR and MNK need a nerf, or everything else needs a buff.

[Akiudo]

no reason to take a SAM or a BLM over a RPR or a MNK because they don't contribute as much rDPS or utility

and i agree with you by value of utility buffs. my whole point from the get go, which i quite clearly stated was that if we were to ignore utility and only look at rdps than i don't agree with your premise because its just "make them allways best so they aren't sometimes worse than some others" and yes, that doesn't change by making them "marginally allways the best". don't bring utility into this if my very first argument was "utility should be taken into account but rdps buffs alone are a bad reason"

[Kazimere]

so your solution to them potentially never being at the top at say the 98%+ level is to simply turn them into the class that is literally allways the strongest and than call that balance ?

You can’t reason with these people. They’re going to start screeching soon. I find it funny the one who is talking about people not understanding rDPs, in fact doesn’t understand rDPs. Whatever her name is.

They can’t understand that Samurai being what it was in StB was busted. It was essentially a lock for a spot, and doubling up was even better for parties who weren’t as coordinated. Same goes for BLM in on the ranged front. They were that powerful.

Regarding your opinion that reaper should do less than samurai cause of a 250 heal. Come on man. It’s not breaking anything. Additionally. I don’t think any reaper would care if the only extended to the reaper itself. I’d prefer it that way at this point, just to get these people to shut the hell up. I imagine they’d just move the goal post at that point though.

This is why we can’t have nice things. Back in the day, you HAD to have things like goad. You HAD to have the dog down jobs. So, they took that stuff away to help with variation. Now, we get some nifty utility on a high dps job that isn’t actually needed (it’s really just flavor), and they are acting like the sky is falling instead of advocating for more stuff like that on melee. It’s ridiculous.

[Akiudo]

Regarding your opinion that reaper should do less than samurai cause of a 250 heal.

let me just say that this isn't really my opinion on the matter, at least not necessarely. i do think it has to be taken into account, as much as it is flavor. but i also do think that without it it should be "slightly" above "selfish" classes so in the end in my opinion it should mostly cancel out, if at the end of the day at the 98+ level rpr is 0,5% above or at exactly samurai level i don't care, i'm mostly in the camp of "not arguing for the final 0,5% or so dps" because than we would give an exact value to every kind of utility that is just not feasible.