So you're telling me..

[Akiudo]

Im genuinely curious about this part, is this normal?

yes and it allways will be, but wow would look exactly the same if mythic was 10 man, it's just the nature of aiming for the top, of course you will take the best even if its only marginally better than the rest. imagine losing out on the world first race because the other group took the dps that deals 1% more damage.

[Kazimere]

so just like the reaper masses saying AC was not overpowered, how'd that work out?


No you haven't, you just compared reaper with monk which is also over tuned and called it balanced, then you compared it with sam and ignored the fact reaper can heal the raid.

The fuck I did. I didn't even run numbers for monk. I ran them for reaper and samurai. Go look at the damn numbers yourself. I'm not providing them to you. You are like a broken record. You just can't come off the defensive.

If all you have is my defense of AC being balanced to hold you, you're just noise at this point. I literally told you I was trolling you on multiple occasions. How much more clear do I need to be on that? I get it, I hurt your feelings. Get over it.

[Scuoll]

It is the 3rd best melee. Sam, Monk, and Reaper are tuned pretty tight in the aDPS department, and that is why you see the tuning being tight in rDPS (1.5-2%). The issue, is that Dragoon and Ninja still seem to be under performing. Like, it's not even close. That's a problem. Their aDPS needs to be brought up to bring them closer in rDPS. That's just how it works.

It actually seems that monk reaper and sam are pretty close, but if reaper is not clearly the best one why do all the groups going for world first have one? I really doubt all these players just like it, they mostly play whatever's best for the situation.
Also yeah it seems even after patch there's more room to buff underperformers, although the graph is nicer than the earlier one https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=78&dataset=95

I really dont buy the "reaper is third best" btw, is this another epic troll?

[tearagion]

Samurai and BLM topping rDPS was busted. It meant their aDPS was so far above the others that the buffed damage (which is given to the buffer) still wasn't enough to cover the spread. That is straight up busted. If people knew how to read the brackets this wouldn't be an issue, but they don't. They look at what fflogs uses for rankings and says that how things are, when it is not the case.

Not reading and they just saying something was busted before doesn't contribute anything, it's just repeating yourself.

see but thats exactly the point, the classes with raid (dps) buffs NEED to actually deal more RAID dps in the perfect scenario or they will in fact allways be worse. the fact that they gain more by having an optimized group means they also lose more by having a group that isn't perfectly optimized.
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lets say classes had no "support", i.e. heals, shields, rezzes and whatnot, only dps buffs. exactly because raid buffs can and do stack to the high heavens you can now

1) make it so in a "perfect" scenario the buffers actually offer more raid dps meaning they will be stronger at the top and than get overtaken relatively early on when you go lower

or

2)you make it so that even in that case the "pure classes" do more meaning they will simply allways be stronger.

acting like samurais being overtaken at 95% while still being stronger everytime before is an issue but samurai simply allways being the stronger choice is actually good design is turning raidbuffs into an detriment.

You're viewing it too black and white, there's an acceptable margin they can be tuned into, but as long as a class with a raidbuff has a higher rDPS (read: they are contributing more damage with their buff and aDPS than a SAM or BLM can contribute with rDPS) then a group optimising will never consider the SAM or the BLM as they are numerically incapable of competing with the multiplicative bonuses raidbuffs feed into each other. If the SAM or the BLM contributes slightly more rDPS (read: enough to cover the gap a multiplicative raidbuff would give instead) then any job is competitive.

In a perfect and infinite set of data, ideally everything would contribute an equitable amount of rDPS, but from the incomplete data we have access to BLM and SAM should very slightly lead as it would indicate competitive value.

[Navnav]

It actually seems that monk reaper and sam are pretty close, but if reaper is not clearly the best one why do all the groups going for world first have one? I really doubt all these players just like it, they mostly play whatever's best for the situation.
Also yeah it seems even after patch there's more room to buff underperformers, although the graph is nicer than the earlier one https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=78&dataset=95

I really dont buy the "reaper is third best" btw, is this another epic troll?

Perhaps ease of play. Same reason why a lot of prog groups like WAR.

[Kazimere]

Im genuinely curious about this part, is this normal? In the current raid tier 3/4 dps slots seem hard locked for serious groups (rpr rdm bard), and right now 1 melee has more representation than 3 of them combined, which to me seems less than ideal, was it like this for example in stormblood when samurai just came out? Or in shb with the strongest class? I know back in the day there were weird things going on with raid buffs/debuffs where some classes had more sinergy, i am talking about recent years.

Coming over from wow i heard a lot of people saying the balance is better, but this seems pretty.. solved? Like all high end groups clearly agree that these 3 jobs are more valuable, i wouldnt say its good balance if all your composition building creativity is limited to the 4th slot. I can understand rdm because spammable instant cast rez is actually a unique upside which other classes dont have access to, in this thread we talked a lot about arcane crest but you cant even really quantify how good spammable rez on a dps is.
No clue about bard, and reaper does still have more utility than the other melees, even if it got nerfed its still more than 0 i guess.
Reaper's overall representation is a byproduct of a lot of things for sure, new, flashy, edgy fantasy, whatever, but i think the people going for world first dont care that much about that and just want the best shot at killing the boss fast

Patch notes were in a good direction, but maybe more changes were needed to shake up the rankings more? It would be cool to see more variety even at the top end.

Bard is crushing Dancer and MCH (to a lesser degree) atm. MCH's aDPS (BRD is substantially behind MCH in aDPS) isn't enough to cover the buffs that BRD brings. Personally, MCH just needs to provide buffs akin to Bard and Dancer. That's just me though, as I'm sure there are plenty who like MCH just pumping numbers.

RDM is usually always brought in at the start of Savage, and then swaps to BLM. That rez is great while people are learning fights. SMN is actually performing close to RDM (2% below in rDPS, 0.6% above in aDPS), but it can't throw out the rezzes like RDM. It also doesn't bring as strong of a buff.

Reaper is actually weaker than monk. It's just far more popular. I'm sure ease of play has something to do with it, but there were also some very good players who swapped to Reaper for EW. DRG and Nin just can't compete with either of them at the moment. That will be adjusted. Of that, I have no doubt. Samurai will always have a place in groups. It's still very strong. Anyone who locks them out is just stupid.

This release has actually been good for balance. It's not perfect, but it's not that bad all things considered. We don't have 10-15% spreads within roles (hello BLM) this go round. Ninja always seems to have this happen. It's like they're the whipping boy for SE.

[Kazimere]

It actually seems that monk reaper and sam are pretty close, but if reaper is not clearly the best one why do all the groups going for world first have one? I really doubt all these players just like it, they mostly play whatever's best for the situation.
Also yeah it seems even after patch there's more room to buff underperformers, although the graph is nicer than the earlier one https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=78&dataset=95

I really dont buy the "reaper is third best" btw, is this another epic troll?

No, its the numbers on aDPS. It breaks into second sub 70% and at 99th to max. It is second on rDPS (flexes to 1st sub 50%).

[Akiudo]

If the SAM or the BLM contributes slightly more rDPS (read: enough to cover the gap a multiplicative raidbuff would give instead) then any job is competitive.

but if they provide more rdps at the top than the buff classes than they aren't "covering the gap" but instead actively exceeding the maximum potential even after multiplicative buffs, otherwise the top groups would still ditch samurai and go for the buff classes.

you are literally saying that its not just okay but necessary for a samurai to deal say 1% more than a "buff class" at the absolute top because no one would take a samurai over a "buff class" if these same buff class provided 1% more dps at the absolute top compared to samurai, by that logic no one would take any "buff" class over samurai aswell.

there will ALLWAYS be a best class, its literally 100% impossible to make every class equal. not even "equal" chess pieces truly hold equal value but are actually more/less valuable in different stages of the game.

all you're asking for is making Samurai every bit as mandatory as you claim say monk to be.

[tearagion]

but if they provide more rdps at the top than the buff classes than they aren't "covering the gap" but instead actively exceeding the maximum potential even after multiplicative buffs, otherwise the top groups would still ditch samurai and go for the buff classes.

you are literally saying that its not just okay but necessary for a samurai to deal say 1% more than a "buff class" at the absolute top because no one would take a samurai over a "buff class" if these same buff class provided 1% more dps at the absolute top compared to samurai, by that logic no one would take any "buff" class over samurai aswell.

there will ALLWAYS be a best class, its literally 100% impossible to make every class equal. not even "equal" chess pieces truly hold equal value but are actually more/less valuable in different stages of the game.

all you're asking for is making Samurai every bit as mandatory as you claim say monk to be.

What I'm saying is that for a selfish DPS class to be pragmatically competitive with the datasets we get it needs to be marginally ahead in average rDPS. Without a lead it's probably (read: given the nature of higher coordination required for buff classes and the fact that parses in general do not utilize these timings well) not good enough at accomplishing its only job. There are only 3 of these selfish DPS jobs in the game they will never be able to crowd out other options just by virtue of there not being enough of them, let alone it being inefficient to start taking more than one if properly balanced.

I'm not saying anything is mandatory. Balance as it is right now is perfectly fine for 99.9% of players. Every job is capable of comfortably completing all content in almost any combination. People just seem to have a misconception about what rDPS indicates as a statistic and what that means for classes who don't positively contribute to rDPS.

[Ransu]

but if they provide more rdps at the top than the buff classes than they aren't "covering the gap" but instead actively exceeding the maximum potential even after multiplicative buffs, otherwise the top groups would still ditch samurai and go for the buff classes.

you are literally saying that its not just okay but necessary for a samurai to deal say 1% more than a "buff class" at the absolute top because no one would take a samurai over a "buff class" if these same buff class provided 1% more dps at the absolute top compared to samurai, by that logic no one would take any "buff" class over samurai aswell.

there will ALLWAYS be a best class, its literally 100% impossible to make every class equal. not even "equal" chess pieces truly hold equal value but are actually more/less valuable in different stages of the game.

all you're asking for is making Samurai every bit as mandatory as you claim say monk to be.

The whole point of sam needing to have top rdps and adps is to make up for the fact the raid doesn't get any buffs from them....rdps is contribution to the raid, not just personal buffs.