So you're telling me..

[Insertusernamehere]

Physical range should always be below magical range because they have 100% free movement. Red mage has nowhere near the mobility of physical range.

Okay.. which means they are still useless :3 good to know ty.

[ZiraZ]

Damage buffs come with the biggest penalty to damage. That's how it's always worked in this game. The more damage support you provide, the weaker your personal damage will be.

sorry I was assuming we're using rDPS for this tier thing
at least in my opinion after the damage buffs have been taken into account buffing the raid, DRG and NIN should come out on top by a few 2 digit numbers or so ahead of monk and RPR who have mantra and AC and then SAM #1

[Insertusernamehere]

It is not my opinion but observation from previous expansions:
It will be probably samurai = black mage > "utility" jobs gets random dps buff or nerf this is random I guess?
I have no idea what will they do or what they should do.. but they usually do same thing at every expansion :3

[LunarEmerald]

I think reaper needs a bit of potency decrease on their basic 123 combo and arcane circle's duration should be reduced. 20s is too much for the personal damage they bring. 10s would be a lot more balanced.

[IruruCece]

dragoon is the melee with the most support damage buffs and trick attack is the still the biggest damage increase in the game. There's a reason why the devs keep ninja as the weakest melee.

Even if you argue reaper's arcane circle is on par with battle litany, dragoon can still partner up with somebody else to increase their damage by 5%. It's like a weaker dance partner since it's not permanent but still provides a good boost..
Trick attack is a 5% damage increase to the entire party (regardless how far apart they are) with a much better uptime than arcane circle.

And yet Ninja's raid and personal DPS are considerably lower than Reapers, and it's long been obvious that Trick Attack is not necessary, much less desired, by most statics short of high end raid teams that actually can take full advantage of TA with the rest of their team. It's the least played job in the entire game, provides less DPS than any other melee, requires more apm than most other jobs to provide mediocre damage, and is competing with all of the ranged jobs for best of the worst in terms of output. And even for average groups in party finder/the rest of us, why bother taking a Ninja when a Reaper contributes more? Why bother taking a Ninja when a Monk contributes more? Why bother with a Ninja when a Red Mage offers better utility and damage? Hell, even despite their lower DPS across the board, a Summoner can still offer a rez to a struggling group or a group looking to prog even if it's ugly and filled with deaths throughout the encounter.

Trick Attack is not strong enough as a raid buff to justify Ninja's current standing, much less the effort the job demands to get the most out of it compared to a freestyle Reaper or Samurai, for a worse result overall. It's more than obvious that players across the board feel the same, which is why comparatively few Ninjas are being taken into the existing endgame.

There have been threads on these boards in the past with NIN players asking for TA to be removed from the game if it meant their personal output would increase. There is a growing discontent among some of those players that they have apparently been balanced around a buff that isn't even necessary for any raid, at any skill level, to succeed. Something has got to give in terms of the job's design, because players are already giving up on it for greener and more personally satisfying pastures.

[Kazimere]

Not sure if you are still participating or not since you are clearly still here, but why would it be a bad thing if the job's performance were closer? I really dont get it, if you just want them not to listen because you are benefitting from current imbalance, its just a stupid idea, if they got better at balancing which is 10000% doable since all jobs are really similar design wise and there are no weird interactions like in wow with legendaries/trinkets/whatever, the game would just be better and there wouldnt be much need to have these discussions.

For what its worth i have read opinions similar to those echoed in these threads in these discords or elsewhere, i even sometimes read reaper loung on the balance discord andwhile there are people that think its balanced, there are also definitely people saying stuff like that arcane crest is overpowered especially because no other melee has something like it, and there are people that think its overtuned damage wise, and that's like the most rpr biased place i can think of, rightly so,nothing wrong with it.

What is so wrong about pointing out current imbalance you should dismiss the whole issue? genuinely dont get it

I’m not benefitting from anything. I play all melee, and I’ve main’d every one of them at various points all the way back to HW. Reaper is just the one I’m currently focusing on.

I don’t particularly think there is a crushing imbalance between the melee. Using all fights in Panda normal at the 95 and 99 bracket. There is a 4-5% difference in the rDPS of Dragoon and Reaper. 4-5%. There is a 2-3% difference between the rDPS of Reaper and Samurai. 2-3%. I didn’t bother do do monk, but its spread will be similar to Reaper. Ninja is the only outlier that falls outside of 5%, but even then it’s only 6%.

So, tell me again how reaper is massively outperforming the other melee? How monk is? The way some people (not you) are screeching on this thread, you’d think the sky was falling. It’s just not so. I don’t think I’ve ever seen tuning be this tight at release for melee. Does that mean that all is good and there don’t need to be adjustments? No, and I never said that there didn’t need to be. There will be adjustments, and historically SE does not nerf nearly as much as they buff.

Dragoon and Ninja both need to be tuned upwards. And imo, the lowest melee should be 2-3% from the top melee. 2-3%. Who that top and who that bottom is going to wind up being remains to be seen.

However, saying reaper should be at whatever hierarchically position on the charts because of xyz is a matter of opinion. That goes for the rest of the melee as well. Full Stop.

[ZiraZ]

I’m not benefitting from anything. I play all melee, and I’ve main’d every one of them at various points all the way back to HW. Reaper is just the one I’m currently focusing on.

I don’t particularly think there is a crushing imbalance between the melee. Using all fights in Panda normal at the 95 and 99 bracket. There is a 4-5% difference in the rDPS of Dragoon and Reaper. 4-5%. There is a 2-3% difference between the rDPS of Reaper and Samurai. 2-3%. I didn’t bother do do monk, but its spread will be similar to Reaper. Ninja is the only outlier that falls outside of 5%, but even then it’s only 6%.

So, tell me again how reaper is massively outperforming the other melee?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE8yMWW0A4c

[Rym]

I no longer see the point of continued arguing, fact is, regardless of personal opinion the tuning will happen tomorrow.

[Kolsykol]

And yet Ninja's raid and personal DPS are considerably lower than Reapers

Wtb 10% Trick Attack back.

[BaconBits]

I think reaper's damage is a bit too high. Good samurais should always beat them.

I feel dps damage wise should be: samurai > monk = reaper > dragoon > ninja = black mage> summoner > red mage > machinist > bard > dancer