So you're telling me..

[Scuoll]

Difficulty to execute can be rewarded with many things, but in the case of FFXIV equating difficulty to execute to higher performance (in this case DPS) is problematic in my opinion. This means that unless you are playing that difficult class then you can't compete, so why bother playing any other class? If not for the LB penalty, whole teams would be constructed of SAMs, BLMs, GNBs, and ASTs, perhaps swapping one of the DPS with a token NIN, DRG, or BRD. Not saying every single class needs to be homogenized so it doesn't matter what class you bring, but when you can compete as different classes do you see a different variety of compositions which is what we have. But lets all be honest here, mostly all jobs are not difficult to use. There is a difficulty to get in to, but that's not the same thing as difficulty to use when conditioned. Coming from a BLM main (which is considered by many the most difficult class, though argued that old SMN was more difficult), BLM is not hard once you know a fight, you literally just sit there casting F4 with the occasional UI transition to regen mana.

As for SMN, well I don't play it, but BLM has gotten several simplications with Xeno and reduced sharpcast and 2 triple cast charges and keeps it top DPS bar.

RPR feels balanced in it's approach. It feels smooth and has power to match it's burstiness. This is subjective for me, but it feels like a well designed job.

I understand what you are saying and i somewhat agree, that overall you shouldnt be forced to play the harder classes to get better results, and that balance should be tighter in general so that you can play whatever without huge discrepancies in performance.

However i also do think that the current situation is even worse that the hypothetical scenario where difficulty rewards you with higher numbers , having the easier class be the one that excels at everything, by your own logic, players that want to perform the best should be looking to swap to reaper right now, and getting better results for less effort just feels sort of cheap?
I agree neither is desirable though.

I am newish to the game and i have really no clue if the devs have someone read these posts and relay it to them, especially during the holidays, but i think a general sentiment most people can get behind is that people dont want to feel like they are being punished arbirtrarily for not playing a clear cut superior option, and right now because of several reasons, odds are the average player will perform way better on reaper than the other melees.

[CKNovel]

Difficulty to execute can be rewarded with many things, but in the case of FFXIV equating difficulty to execute to higher performance (in this case DPS) is problematic in my opinion..

Yes, completely.
DPS only serves to beat enrage and to speedkill. If you struggle with a clear, it's about execution, if you can't execute the tier properly then you will have to rely on the tomestones gear.
Especially with tomestones weapons much more accessible.

SMN is a great example. RDM is not excessively hard to play, yet SMN is far below RDM. Considering SMN healing is limited and RDM can res as it wants, why should you bring a SMN over a RDM?
SMN is simply never rewarded for their efforts while the RDM is despite them being on a low complexity level.
It's also a problem with the ranged role. MCH only brings damage, BRD and DNC can assist much more to the team survival. In the current state, why should you even consider bringing a MCH?

Obviously the answer to both questions is because people play the job they want and that in the end, DPS doesn't matter. But if DPS doesn't matter, then there is no problem with buffing certain jobs.
You still need a balance a bit, otherwise if healer or tank would do as much damage as the DPS, you would see these roles replacing the DPS.
On top of that, difficulty based on the role varies a lot , look at P1 and P2, damn big hitboxes and free positionnals on P2. We also had E3S and E7S with no positionnals and big hitboxes, E12S with massive hitboxes.

[Xiaoki]

I would call it "easier to execute", "easier to play", choose whatever you want. So yeah, Yoshi is lieing if that´s the case, and i´m pretty sure, that everyone agree, that this is the case. There have been more than enough discussions about the range-tax.

You can call it whatever you want but your delusions won't change facts.

I guess this is my fault, interacting with a hardcore troll like you is futile.

[Ransu]

I can't stand the concept of difficulty = strong. I main Akira in virtua fighter and people justify him being insanely good because his inputs are difficult, but difficulty is relative. I dont have a problem with his inputs, but yet it's OK that i can take 70% of your health in a single move on counter hit because the input is hard to do? Yaaaa no I don't buy into that type of balance. Balance in fighting games should be based around characters frame data, hit boxes and their general tools sets (parries, sabakis, special evasive moves etc....), not how hard their inputs are.

It's the same thing here or in any mmo. Balance should be based around utility, skill speed, etc...DRG for example isn't busrty because they have a lot of attacks they can weave while also having decent raid buffs. Samurai on the other hand has no utility and all their big moves require build up and a cast time to use so it makes sense for them to be the best dps along with black mage.

To say a job show be low dps because it's "easy" is beyond stupid and Yoshi P has the right of it with his statement.

[ZiraZ]

I can't stand the concept of difficulty = strong. I main Akira in virtua fighter and people justify him being insanely good because his inputs are difficult, but difficulty is relative. I dont have a problem with his inputs, but yet it's OK that i can take 70% of your health in a single move on counter hit because the input is hard to do? Yaaaa no I don't buy into that type of balance. Balance in fighting games should be based around characters frame data, hit boxes and their general tools sets (parties, sabakis, special evasive moves etc....), not how hard their inputs are.

It's the same thing here or in any mmo. Balance should be based around utility, skill speed, etc...DRG for example isn't busrty because they have a lot of attacks they can weave while also having decent raid buffs. Samurai on the other hand has no utility and all their big moves require build up and a cast time to use so it makes sense for them to be the best dps along with black mage.

To say a job show be low dps because it's "easy" is beyond stupid and Yoshi P has the right of it with his statement.

it's not really about difficult = strong, it's about jobs having extra depth more skilled and knowledgeable people can use to apply and making a difference in their performance, very easy example if BLM, stats have already been posted in this thread, the difference between a good BLM and a mediocre one is pretty big, but the mediocre one is still in the realm of being able to clear a boss.
The problem people have with reaper is your inputs barely make a difference, again as demonstrated by the statistics, the difference between a good RPR and a mediocre one is not that big but the difference between the same good and mediocre players on another job is much bigger, reapers hardly get punished for mistakes or not seizing an opportunity.

I also don't think this is something that can be fixed anytime soon or that reaper should be punished right now for it, it's just a thought about later updates, giving them more complexity will be good for reaper, bringing everyone down in complexity is bad, I don't want to be playing jobs with less complexity than moba characters on an mmo.

As of right now the only thing that needs addressing is AC and their damage as a melee job with strong utility.
Big nerf to AC, small nerf to their dmg probably their 1-2-3 combo, small nerf to monk and a small buff to other melee jobs that are lacking, seems simple and fair enough for me.
I really can't fathom who could ever defend AC in it's current state without being biased to the extreme.

[IruruCece]

To say a job show be low dps because it's "easy" is beyond stupid and Yoshi P has the right of it with his statement.

This Machinist and Dancer erasure is pretty hilarious imho. They exist, are extremely easy to play compared to a considerable majority of the jobs in the game, and are also competing with Summoner for lowest DPS in the game. Seems like difficulty and output are correlated for some jobs, at the very least.

Comparing fighting games with an MMO that has a GCD per command input isn't exactly a great comparison, and it roundly ignores the natures of both games while also ignoring some very basic things about motivating players in ANY videogame. It also ignores real fighting game examples where complex inputs on difficult to use characters often results in extremely powerful attacks (and can turn an otherwise difficult to play character who may be at a general disadvantage against a 'meta' character into a very dangerous matchup).

As someone who plays Virtual Fighter, I think you could probably name a few things in that game that fall in line with that design philosophy.

If a job is mechanically more demanding and complex, and requires more attentiveness from the player to get the most out of it, why shouldn't it result in a greater reward for the player than, say, someone who just gets to press buttons when they feel like it from a very safe distance? Why would anyone play something that requires maximum effort for minimal reward? The answer is they often don't. Look at how many more Machinists, Summoners, Dancers, Reapers, and Red Mages there are compared to Monk and Ninja, and this is AFTER Monk has effectively been dumbed down to cater to people who have been screeching for years about a job they don't even play that they are put off by the "high-stress gameplay" of moving left and right next to a boss with a clearly defined hit box at their feet.

This is a problem that Ninja, in particular, has been facing for years, and the answer to their personal DPS woes has consistently been "but you provide trick attack!!!!11". Ninja is also now the least played DPS in the game, and the recent changes have pulled the floor out from under its player population. Ninja requires significantly higher CPM than Reaper currently does, yet has far lower raid AND personal dps than Reaper, which has far less to worry about throughout its rotation while also providing a powerful support utility.

If the only thing driving people to play Ninja at this point is ~the aesthetic~, it's no wonder fewer players are bothering to show their mastery of the job in more demanding endgame content. Just roll up with a Reaper and contribute more for far less effort and fancier particle effects.

[Quintessa]

The problem people have with reaper is your inputs barely make a difference, again as demonstrated by the statistics, the difference between a good RPR and a mediocre one is not that big but the difference between the same good and mediocre players on another job is much bigger, reapers hardly get punished for mistakes or not seizing an opportunity.

Let's not pretend freestyle reapers don't exist and/or the ones who don't use SoD/WoD or even enter enshroud.

But yes, Yoshida please nerf RPR, so people can STFU about it. Good Lord..

[Kolsykol]

Let's not pretend freestyle reapers don't exist and/or the ones who don't use SoD/WoD or even enter enshroud.

But yes, Yoshida please nerf RPR, so people can STFU about it. Good Lord..

I mean don't you think that it's quite telling that a mediocre/ bad Reaper needs to essentially go as far as to intentionally not enter Enshroud etc?
It's like a SAM not using Midare Setsugekka and Tsubame Gaeshi levels of bad but that's as far as it has to go to make a real difference.

I dunno wtf a '' freestyle Reaper '' is either, they're so on rails that I genuinely have no clue.
The only way you could freestyle Reaper is if you didn't use your abilities on CD and for some reason decided that it was a good idea to not use Gallows until 20 sec after it came off CD or something.
To some extent '' freestyle '' is built into Reaper inherently but I think calling it that is perhaps pushing it a bit.

Like the difference between a good BLM and a medicore or even okay one is very noticeable.
The difference for Reaper isn't really noticeable pretty much at all, people who never use Enshroud are just on a different level of bad beneath mediocre or they're intentionally playing poorly.
Maybe people want to argue that using AC on AoE makes a Reaper good but imo that'd be an incredibly low bar that's just rly basic common sense stuff.

[Maverick_Haas]

I dunno wtf a '' freestyle Reaper '' is either, they're so on rails that I genuinely have no clue.
The only way you could freestyle Reaper is if you didn't use your abilities on CD and for some reason decided that it was a good idea to not use Gallows until 20 sec after it came off CD or something.
To some extent '' freestyle '' is built into Reaper inherently but I think calling it that is perhaps pushing it a bit.

I usually let people off about this kind of thing, but not while discussing whether or not RPR is "easy" and/or needs to be nerfed and by how far. You just demonstrated you don't know how RPR plays.
You could have simply looked up which ability(s) had important CDs, hell even look at The Balance documents for RPR. But no, you had to be lazy and showed you don't know how the job is played.

I expect that, if you're going to call the job easy, you know how to play the job. Else I really think you should do the minimal and look up a guide or something. Here's the full doc on RPR.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...rlWC5DXdU/edit

[ssunny2008]

You can call it whatever you want but your delusions won't change facts.

I guess this is my fault, interacting with a hardcore troll like you is futile.

Ähem what?! Mind to enlighten me?

YP claimed "difficult won´t effect performance" as other said. But phys. range pay tax, because they don´t have to cast or care about melee-uptime. This means, they´re easier to play and lose DPS cause of that. Or do i miss something?