So you're telling me..

[Kolsykol]

No one is saying Reaper should do 2k less dps and just because people are talking about it doesn't mean that it's '' whining ''.
By that same logic you're whining about people whining.

Just because you disagree with what someone is saying doesn't mean that they're whining.

[Maverick_Haas]

No one is saying Reaper should do 2k less dps and just because people are talking about it doesn't mean that it's '' whining ''.
By that same logic you're whining about people whining.

Just because you disagree with what someone is saying doesn't mean that they're whining.

A lot of people have been asking that RPR be the weakest dps. No joke, this thread has more than a handful of calls to nerf it into the ground, and to be on par if not lower than NIN.

It gets worse when you look at other threads and on reddit.

[Kolsykol]

A lot of people have been asking that RPR be the weakest dps. No joke, this thread has more than a handful of calls to nerf it into the ground, and to be on par if not lower than NIN.

It gets worse when you look at other threads and on reddit.

No one is saying this please link me to where anyone has said that Reaper should be the weakest dps.
Including in this thread.
I haven't even seen anyone say it should be the lowest of melee dps.

This is like how clickbait media operates where they'll say '' people say '' and they'll link to a Tweet with zero followers and one like ( by themselves ).
Or they won't even do that they'll just say that but then not back it up and just act like it's true to make it seem like there's a controversy where there is none.

[ssunny2008]

A lot of people have been asking that RPR be the weakest dps. No joke, this thread has more than a handful of calls to nerf it into the ground, and to be on par if not lower than NIN.

It gets worse when you look at other threads and on reddit.

Still nobody here asks for nerfs like "2000 DPS less".

RPR should have the lowest melee DPS in comparison. Having a gap from ~300/400 DPS (buffs already included) between the 1st and the 5th melee should be fine. I´ve posted a little list some pages ago.
Of course you don´t have to agree with it, but i highly doubt that anyone here is like "Nerf it into the ground!". It´s still about balance based on difficulty and utility. If e.g. a top DRG would´ve 400 DPS more than RPR, then the average is probably even since DRG has way more stuff to care about. (But if a top RPR has 400 more than a top DRG, than the average RPR has 800 more... a similar state we´ve already and which is not good...)

Stuff like AC is a different thing. It´s just to powerful as tank-healing is. SE needs to adjust all of that and should give healers their role back. Stuff which assist healer (Mantra, Nophica) is something different than having pure heal-utilities which are as strong as or even stronger than the most tools in healer kits.

I haven't even seen anyone say it should be the lowest of melee dps.

I did... either the lowest melee or even with MNK on the 4th place. NIN, DRG and SAM should definately have a comfortzone since they need more input and have 0 utility.

[Kolsykol]

Still nobody here asks for nerfs like "2000 DPS less".

RPR should have the lowest melee DPS in comparison. Having a gap from ~300/400 DPS (buffs already included) between the 1st and the 5th melee should be fine. I´ve posted a little list some pages ago.
Of course you don´t have to agree with it, but i highly doubt that anyone here is like "Nerf it into the ground!". It´s still about balance based on difficulty and utility. If e.g. a top DRG would´ve 400 DPS more than RPR, then the average is probably even since DRG has way more stuff to care about. (But if a top RPR has 400 more than a top DRG, than the average RPR has 800 more... a similar state we´ve already and which is not good...)

Stuff like AC is a different thing. It´s just to powerful as tank-healing is. SE needs to adjust all of that and should give healers their role back. Stuff which assist healer (Mantra, Nophica) is something different than having pure heal-utilities which are as strong as or even stronger than the most tools in healer kits.



I did... either the lowest melee or even with MNK on the 4th place. NIN, DRG and SAM should definately have a comfortzone since they need more input and have 0 utility.

I dunno about bellow NIN, I think Reaper and MNK should be on par I do think that AC needs to get looked at tho it's too strong ( and there is quite frankly already too much and too easy healing going around, healers are already having a bad time with too little to do ).

Regardless this ain't directed at you but just in case of '' well acktjhually '' from others.
I am not saying that quite literally no person on the planet is saying Reaper shouldn't perhaps even be the lowest dps altogether.
But those people are not worth taking seriously and they also don't represent a sizeable enough portion of people that it's even worth entertaining.
You can find people who say quite literally anything, I am sure you could find people who unironically believe that Tanks should be out dps:ing DPS.

People just bring up these absurd examples like '' 2k dps nerf '' to basically try and shut down the conversation.

[Scuoll]

A lot of people have been asking that RPR be the weakest dps. No joke, this thread has more than a handful of calls to nerf it into the ground, and to be on par if not lower than NIN.

It gets worse when you look at other threads and on reddit.

Those are just bad faith arguments, you can safely ignore them, but there are reasonable takes in this thread, i don't think it should be that controversial to say that different jobs should have different upsides and that comparing ninja or dragoon to reaper makes them look pretty weak as they contribute less rdps, utility and are at least a bit harder to play (least important thing of the 3 just feels bad to get more with less effort in my opinion).

[Maverick_Haas]

Still nobody here asks for nerfs like "2000 DPS less".

I agree it's hyperbole, but effectively people are asking for it to be the worse dps because crest should be tuned? Instead of tuning down crest, they just want to completely kill the class identity.

RPR should have the lowest melee DPS in comparison.

RPR should not be the lowest melee DPS. Everything about this job screams DEAL DAMAGE. It's class identity, transforming into a void sent and dealing a ton of damage, would feel completely underwhelming if it hits like a wet noodle. If you're not a fan of class identity or want to be more realistic with your approach, then RPR's whole kit is designed around having a 40 - 60 second burst phase (double or triple enshroud). Circle gives a 3% damage buff, but most importantly it gives us the resource we need to use PF which enables us to do these long burst phases. I'll be honest and admit that I'm not sure if NIN and DRG has such a long burst phase and set up requirements (although lvl 80 DRG didn't seem have any issue with getting it's burst phase which was maybe a 15-20sec burst iirc). But I guarantee you RPR will become a laugh that it has to do a long burst phase in order to do more DPS than ranged variants.

Stuff like AC is a different thing. It´s just to powerful as tank-healing is. ...which are as strong as or even stronger than the most tools in healer kits.

What I don't understand is if you think crest is so strong, then why not advocate for nerfing it to be more on par with what MNK has, instead of wanting to nerf the whole job in itself. I'm not talking about not tuning at all, of course, but most people's reasoning for nerfing RPR to lowest "melee" dps is because of crest? Makes no sense to me and feels very overreaching. If crest was removed, would their DPS output be more acceptable?

Also, crest is one of the weakest regen abilities, only beating fairy whispering dawn, not to mention is very situational with a 30sec recast time, where as medica 2 can be recast immediately after the 15s duration. Not saying it shouldn't be tuned, but it's asinine to claim that it's putting healers out of a job.

NIN, DRG and SAM should definately have a comfortzone since they need more input and have 0 utility.

?? I don't think I understand what you are saying here, NIN and DRG have a ton of raid utility?

...Of course you don´t have to agree with it...

I don't agree at all with your opinions, but I hope we can at the very least agree to disagree and let SE do what they feel is best.

Those are just bad faith arguments, you can safely ignore them

I agree with you that they were bad faith arguments, but they also tend to be the "loudest" where ever I look.

[Scuoll]

RPR should not be the lowest melee DPS. Everything about this job screams DEAL DAMAGE. It's class identity, transforming into a void sent and dealing a ton of damage, would feel completely underwhelming if it hits like a wet noodle. If you're not a fan of class identity or want to be more realistic with your approach, then RPR's whole kit is designed around having a 40 - 60 second burst phase (double or triple enshroud). Circle gives a 3% damage buff, but most importantly it gives us the resource we need to use PF which enables us to do these long burst phases. I'll be honest and admit that I'm not sure if NIN and DRG has such a long burst phase and set up requirements (although lvl 80 DRG didn't seem have any issue with getting it's burst phase which was maybe a 15-20sec burst iirc). But I guarantee you RPR will become a laugh that it has to do a long burst phase in order to do more DPS than ranged variants.



What I don't understand is if you think crest is so strong, then why not advocate for nerfing it to be more on par with what MNK has, instead of wanting to nerf the whole job in itself. I'm not talking about not tuning at all, of course, but most people's reasoning for nerfing RPR to lowest "melee" dps is because of crest? Makes no sense to me and feels very overreaching. If crest was removed, would their DPS output be more acceptable?

.

I am a bit confused by this part, i am pretty sure the fantasy of every melee dps is doing damage, ninja stabs and casts magic, dragoon is shooting dragons and jumping all over the place, samurai does big sword slashes, am i missing something?
Is it alright for ninja fantasy if it hits like a wet noodle while stunlocking yourself with raiju dashes? Kinda weird argument

Also, i agree it makes more sense for reaper to be a damage dealer first and foremost than the melee with a really good healing skill for the whole party, but you cant ignore they currently are both.
If crest was just removed it would still be one of the best jobs in the game, thats the crazy part, i think you also need to tune damage of other melee jobs so their rdps is closer to each other. Maybe for reaper fantasy lower the rdps contribution of circle so its clearly more focused on personal dps, i dont know about the specific changes honestly, and i would personally prefer the highest rdps job to be one of the harder ones, which doesnt mean reaper useless and unplayable, just closer to the others.

I am aware that perfect balance is impossible unless complete homogenization happens, but right now it definitely has room for improvement/tightening the margins.

[ssunny2008]

RPR should not be the lowest melee DPS. Everything about this job screams DEAL DAMAGE. It's class identity, transforming into a void sent and dealing a ton of damage, would feel completely underwhelming if it hits like a wet noodle. If you're not a fan of class identity or want to be more realistic with your approach, then RPR's whole kit is designed around having a 40 - 60 second burst phase (double or triple enshroud). Circle gives a 3% damage buff, but most importantly it gives us the resource we need to use PF which enables us to do these long burst phases. I'll be honest and admit that I'm not sure if NIN and DRG has such a long burst phase and set up requirements (although lvl 80 DRG didn't seem have any issue with getting it's burst phase which was maybe a 15-20sec burst iirc). But I guarantee you RPR will become a laugh that it has to do a long burst phase in order to do more DPS than ranged variants.

What I don't understand is if you think crest is so strong, then why not advocate for nerfing it to be more on par with what MNK has, instead of wanting to nerf the whole job in itself. I'm not talking about not tuning at all, of course, but most people's reasoning for nerfing RPR to lowest "melee" dps is because of crest? Makes no sense to me and feels very overreaching. If crest was removed, would their DPS output be more acceptable?

I want MNK to be nerfed too and i´m an old MNK main so... i would always prefer to keep things UNIQUE but balanced instead of easy and broken. Imo both don´t deserve to be top melee-DPS.

Let´s say 8k DRG, 7,9k SAM / NIN, 7,7k MNK, 7,6k RPR... without AC i would go for 7,7k RPR, but that´s it. If MNK had no Mantra, i would go for 7,8k at best.
You and others might see it opinion-based, but MNK and RPR are way easier to play than the others. They´ve the flow, they´ve only 2 positionals, they´ve like 0 oGCD´s unless your gauge is full, you´ve no real animation stuck, the chance to missplay is ~halved compared to the other melees. And bot have utility,which is not just DPS, imo.
The reason why MNK should be a little bit above RPR is, because you´ve a 6 key rotation you need to adjust and a way shorter buff / Dot timing. RPR on the other hand just have to keep an eye on a 30s buff and should take care that the gauge won´t get overfilled while playing 123.

I get your point, but isn´t everything on DPS classes screaming like "DAMAGE!"? I´m up for class-identity and uniqueness in all ways. I hate homogenization, but it should still be balanced somehow. Not that i would care to be excluded from raids, because i don´t rely on the meta... i just don´t see the need that some classes should´ve everything in their kit, that they make other roles obsolete in some way or that you get "bigger rewards" in kind of DPS for less efford.

?? I don't think I understand what you are saying here, NIN and DRG have a ton of raid utility?

I don´t count raid-damage buffs as utility so far. I would always count it in the average DPS already. They don´t have stuff like AC or Mantra to assist the whole raid in another way but DPS.

I don't agree at all with your opinions, but I hope we can at the very least agree to disagree and let SE do what they feel is best.

Of course.

Don´t get me wrong, i get your and others points. I know it´s often even just about "having fun", which is the most important thing in games and ppl mostly forget it. But since it´s a multiplayer game, you might take fun away from others if stuff isn´t well balanced or changes happen out of nowhere. I lost a lot of fun because MNK and tanks got simplified and homogenized again and again to cater ppl who use them once in a while. But i would never rate "being top DPS" as fun. Big numbers are nothing but scaling. I press that button, my char uses Midare, it makes pewpew, why should i feel good, seriously? Great gameplay shouldn´t defined by some numbers. Of course it can feel great to slaughter everything down, but then i would recommend an ARPG title like Diablo instead of a MMORPG.

[Maverick_Haas]

I am a bit confused by this part, i am pretty sure the fantasy of every melee dps is doing damage, ninja stabs and casts magic, dragoon is shooting dragons and jumping all over the place, samurai does big sword slashes, am i missing something?
...
I am aware that perfect balance is impossible unless complete homogenization happens, but right now it definitely has room for improvement/tightening the margins.

In hindsight, I agree it's silly to say that because, subjectively, I find RPR more badass/appealing that thus should deal more damage. It's not what I was trying to say, but it does come across that way I suppose. But playing the job gives you the perspective that you will deal a lot of damage during burst phase.

Of course tuning is required, and I'm not advocating that RPR be the clear top DPS, but I am trying to prevent it from being the worst dps.

You and others might see it opinion-based, but MNK and RPR are way easier to play than the others.
..
i just don´t see the need that some classes should´ve everything in their kit, that they make other roles obsolete in some way or that you get "bigger rewards" in kind of DPS for less efford.

SE doesn't balance classes on difficulty to play, in fact not many game devs balance on difficulty to play. Years playing mobas have taught me that the difficulty of a hero/champ/avatar doesn't equate to higher performance. Though more difficult classes can have higher performance potential, it's not always the case. Perhaps you could argue that it should, and some part of me would agree with you. After all, I mained BLM for SB and ShB and I did love playing BLM and it's difficulty made it a good challenge for me, and I love the BD dps numbers. But after playing BLM for so long, the difficulty of pulling big numbers became dependent on fight knowledge and just it kinda got... easy after that.

RPR is by no means the hardest job to play, but I don't agree that because it doesn't have a high skill requirement that it should be the lowest DPS. But we could argue all day about skill requirements and what seems fair for DPS, but ultimately I defer to SE's balancing.

Personally, I find RPR to be the most balanced gameplay wise. Also, who's to say the reason RPR feels "easy" is because it was simplified alongside MNK and others? Or at the very least it was designed this way precisely because everything else got simplified. IIRC, yoshi-p stated that RPR was meant to be on par with SAM.