So you're telling me..

[Scuoll]

I’m not arguing that it’s definitely more forgiving. That much is clear. I guess some consider that easier. Personally, I don’t. Then again, I don’t find any of the melee particularly challenging, but that is subjective.

Kinda not the point, but i really dont see how something giving the average player better results for less efforts is not easier.

[Kazimere]

Kinda not the point, but i really dont see how something giving the average player better results for less efforts is not easier.

explain to me how samurai, or any other melee, is harder than reaper?

[ZiraZ]

I’m not arguing that it’s definitely more forgiving. That much is clear. I guess some consider that easier. Personally, I don’t. Then again, I don’t find any of the melee particularly challenging, but that is subjective.

I don't think he's talking about hard vs easy, it's about ease of performance.
Someone can go on their reaper clear EX1 for example 10 times and then do the same on their Ninja/DRG/SAM/whatever and the results will show his performance was way more consistent on the Reaper because basically nothing can really go wrong playing a reaper other than dying.
So if the reaper is so very easily autopiloted then there needs to be a cost for that just like how Range Physical can perform their entire rotation on the move, this is a real cost SE has in effect for range physical jobs just like how utility has a cost.

Sounds like a personal problem.

Reaper hidden trait: Enhanced Bias.

[Scuoll]

explain to me how samurai, or any other melee, is harder than reaper?

Well, having played drg, sam and reaper at max level the first thing which i think is pretty objective is the fact that reaper plays a lot slower, if you look at average casts per minute its the lowest of the melees, which makes it feel less involved, very few ogcds to press so you can focus easily on mechanics.
Also, because of the double gauge system you get to decide where to spend and do positionals, which is an upside other melees dont have, for now it doesnt matter that much, but in more challenging content i think it will be really good.

Getting into specifics about rotations of each job requires an essay i feel like, your question is really loaded, dont you think the fact that the lower player skill is, the better reaper performs comparatively is a sufficient indicator?

[Kazimere]

I mean...it kinda is.

Nah, working as intended

[Evos]

Did RPR somehow bridge a new gap in design and player skill level despite it's systems.

We know RPR has a lot off different systems interacting and now, aside from potency adjust ment, are we saying that a greater number of players can handle this design type? Or is it just the "how" we implement already " standardized systems (build and dump, procs, guage use). Are we willing to give, as some pointed out, SAM or BLM some small level of raid utility to expand job design (even if small or does not apply to self)? Will that end the debate? Are we so content with "our" current assessments of balance "should be" like this and constrain creativity.

Perhaps there is enthusiasm towards this type of design (system interactions) and no more need to simplify battle designs because "players can't handle that many things". Perhaps we will have people say that "it's still very easy design" but I feel like it opens doors in future jobs.

Than again we can still insist in this case that RPR's interactions themselves are shallow. But where do we want RPR in terms of easy vs hard and job design?

Some are using the utility vs pure damage argument. But do we run the risk of eventually saying why am I doing all these inputs to do SMN/RDM level of dps? Are we saying the current apm or effort warrants a certain ranking amongst dps despite the utility argument?

Ease of play and damage out. Delete the utility and we good? Or will we argue simplicity after that?

I don't want to change the subject.
But reading the responses makes me think about various ways we try to prevent simplicity but fail due to what we critic in design for the sake of "proper structures" and rankings.

[Lyth]

This is my first expansion back on melee dps in a long time, but haven't all of them undergone massive simplifications? I'm particularly intrigued as to how MNK, after roughly fourteen thousand reworks has come full circle as a faithful reproduction of the ARR version, except with next to no positionals, no GL, and the Steel Peak/Howling Fist equivalents sharing a cooldown. I think when you sift through the fluff and artificial APM inflating effects on these jobs (let's press four buttons in sequence to perform one action!) you actually find that there really aren't all that many things to track or decision timepoints on any of these jobs. The primary consideration on all of these jobs is going to be on how to glue yourself to the boss while dancing with death. I'd be surprised if you struggle on rotation decisions on any of these.

I am a fan of GCD based speedboosts, and I will say that I would love to see more forays into RPR's 1.5s GCD with future melee dps jobs. It's a pity that we don't really look at the rate of change/first derivative of APM, simply because most jobs are defined rotationally by what happens during burst and not based off of the global average. I'd also love to see more of a focus on precision movement actions like Ingress/Egress and Shukuchi, because that's where I think the role's true skill ceiling lies.

[Kazimere]

This is my first expansion back on melee dps in a long time, but haven't all of them undergone massive simplifications? I'm particularly intrigued as to how MNK, after roughly fourteen thousand reworks has come full circle as a faithful reproduction of the ARR version, except with next to no positionals, no GL, and the Steel Peak/Howling Fist equivalents sharing a cooldown. I think when you sift through the fluff and artificial APM inflating effects on these jobs (let's press four buttons in sequence to perform one action!) you actually find that there really aren't all that many things to track or decision timepoints on any of these jobs. The primary consideration on all of these jobs is going to be on how to glue yourself to the boss while dancing with death. I'd be surprised if you struggle on rotation decisions on any of these.

I am a fan of GCD based speedboosts, and I will say that I would love to see more forays into RPR's 1.5s GCD with future melee dps jobs. It's a pity that we don't really look at the rate of change/first derivative of APM, simply because most jobs are defined rotationally by what happens during burst and not based off of the global average. I'd also love to see more of a focus on precision movement actions like Ingress/Egress and Shukuchi, because that's where I think the role's true skill ceiling lies.

Pft, ain’t got no time for egress. Pop AC and eat the mechanic!

[Rym]

Hmm.

ohhhh but why are you linking max logs only are you cherrypicking for your argument you loser lmao

I only compare myself to 99th+ percentile, I always went for max percentile in raiding in wow and that's how I'm going here as well, at the very least max personal percentile (which is how well I maximized my class personally in the encounter). Just as I did PoTD 200 floors for the challenge, cause it's fun. Just as I'm gonna do it again to get rank 1, cause it's a fun challenge for me.

Now I'm not saying RPR isn't strong, but it's probably not as strong as a lot of people make it out to be. Probably because the difference in DPS between RPR and MCH is of 679 in one of the encounters (Zodiark), this is between supposedly the strongest DPS in the game and the weakest DPS in the game. Big difference? Not really, it's barely a 10.4% difference. And between the strongest DPS in the entire game (SAM) and the weakest DPS in the game (MCH) the difference is of 753 DPS, which is 11.6%.

So many people are whining here like the world is ending, like they want RPR to do 2000 less DPS than it is. I hope SE isn't watching these forums.

Does RPR deserve a nerf? A lot of classes actually deserve tuning, because they're screwed in so many ways no one even talks about it anymore. A lot of classes, which ppl who are complaining here are maining, actually deserve nerfs themselves, and a lot of other classes deserve to be buffed. But the reality is, this class balancing is very tight to the point that every class is more or less viable in every content, with a margin of difference of less than 12% between the very strongest and the very weakest.

[Kolsykol]

No one is saying Reaper should do 2k less dps and just because people are talking about it doesn't mean that it's '' whining ''.
By that same logic you're whining about people whining.

Just because you disagree with what someone is saying doesn't mean that they're whining.