So you're telling me..

[tearagion]

I'm rambling now, eh? Ok buddy. It is relevant, considering you're advocating to go back to that. If that's your position, you're entitled to it, but you are just advocating to flip the proverbial coin over. Good job.

Please learn to read, I'm literally saying I'm not advocating for that in the same post you replied to. You're embarrassing yourself.

[IruruCece]

This is why we can’t have nice things. Back in the day, you HAD to have things like goad. You HAD to have the dog down jobs. So, they took that stuff away to help with variation. Now, we get some nifty utility on a high dps job that isn’t actually needed (it’s really just flavor), and they are acting like the sky is falling instead of advocating for more stuff like that on melee. It’s ridiculous.

Here's the thing: Things like "goad" were taken away because SE as a whole would rather simplify the overall experience. Positionals? Originally nerfed in value, now straight up getting removed from jobs, because SE would rather simplify the overall experience. A job that "doesn't really have a rotation", but rather has "priorities" exists because SE would rather simplify the overall experience.

Dancer? New Summoner? New Monk? Machinists since ShB? All of these things are efforts to simplify the overall experience, so that "everyone" can play a job, even ones they've spent more time complaining about than actually playing to any extent, much less raid with.

A pure DPS, that doesn't offer ANY utility or group buffs, should be a valid option for a raid group. It should bring damage to justify that it offers nothing to the rest of the team, and only benefits from what the team brings. It should be a trade off that players of the group choose to make, and they shouldn't have a nagging feeling that maybe they'd be doing better if they stacked four dps that all brought some sort of raid utility with them. So in a sense yes, SAM, BLM, AND MCH should be the A Number One Buttkickers of their respective roles, from a personal DPS perspective, because of how little they provide to other DPS in a team. That's the trade off.

The problem facing Samurai now is similar to the problem Monk faced in Heavensward, being ostensibly the top melee dps, but not actually desired by anyone at the high end of play because there's other jobs with better synergies. And SE has a TERRIBLE track record with Monk in their efforts to try and kitbash in some utility without actually considering both the identity and the actual act of playing the job, failing to address longstanding issues repeatedly across multiple expansions, and ultimately giving up and remaking the design in hopes of driving up player population for the job. That failed, by the way. It failed big and it failed ugly. But somehow, I can see SE doing the exact same thing to Samurai in the future, and like Monk it will be a problem they created for themselves.

[Akiudo]

snip

dps buffs are NOT utility. Utility buffs are utility and should be treated as such (meaning something that is not dps but still valuable to the group, i.e. it should be counted against their dps to a reasonable degree). dps buffs however are just that, dps. people more often than not however are arguing that dps buffs should be a reason to do lower rdps, and that argument realistically boils down to

"you buff the group for 1500 dps so you should personally do 1700 dps less yourself" which yes, sounds incredibly stupid if you phrase it like that, but that's because it is.

[IruruCece]

dps buffs are NOT utility. Utility buffs are utility and should be treated as such, dps buffs are dps.

We've already established that you don't know what words mean, there's no need to reiterate.

[Ransu]

dps buffs are NOT utility. Utility buffs are utility and should be treated as such (meaning something that is not dps but still valuable to the group, i.e. it should be counted against their dps to a reasonable degree. dps buffs however are just that, dps. people more often than not however are arguing that dps buffs should be a reason to do lower rdps, and that argument realistically boils down to

"you buff the group for 1500 dps so you should personally do 1700 dps less yourself" which yes, sounds incredibly stupid if you phrase it like that, but that's because it is.

Uh, what? DPS buffs that apply to the entire raid are absolutely utilities.

[Akiudo]

Uh, what? DPS buffs that apply to the entire raid are absolutely utilities.

let me rephrase it just so we don't argue on the meaning of words.

buffs outside of dps=those have a value for the group which is hard to measure in exact numbers, it is fair to argue that classes that offer those compared to those that don't should be penalized in their dps, the question is "what is a reasonable amount".

buffs that effectively do nothing but dps=these allready give us exact numbers, penalizing classes that offer those compared to those that don't by a higher value than what these buffs actually offer is stupid, if buffing the group by 1500 dps gets penalized by a personal 1600 dps loss than "buffing the group" is not only actively useless but a detriment.

because one has a definite value (dps buffs) whereas putting a dps value on others (shields, regens, movement buffs, dispells...) is subjective it makes no sense to act like both are the same, they are not, and when discussed that should be kept in mind.

no the point i take issue with is this, given that perfect balance at all levels is impossible and buff classes generally have a higher dps drop the further down they go than if having a dps buff (again, purely dps buff here) is to be penalized there are 3 ways this can go.

a) you penalize the class for clearly less than it buffs, the result is the buffer allways being stronger.
b) you penalize the class for clearly more than it buffs, the result is the buffer allways being weaker.
c) you penalize the class on a level thats somewhat less than it buffs at the highest level while punishing it for more than the value of its buff the lower you go, leading to a situation where the buff is usefull at the top end but in exchange a detriment the lower you go.

c) leaves us with a situation where "whats best" actually changes depending on group composition aswell as skill level. version a) and b) on the other hand just let one side allways be stronger, it doesn't matter which of those extremes, both are equally bad by themselves.

[Mysticunicycle]

Uh, what? DPS buffs that apply to the entire raid are absolutely utilities.

No. It doesn't matter if you do the number with your own hands, or if your magic number make-go-bigger makes somebody else do the number. The number is still your number. If your number from other players + your own number is still smaller than the number of another job that does all of its number on its own (sam, blm, mch), then there is no reason to ever play a buffing job.

[Wyakin]

Fun story. Samurai was so poor in stormblood (it’s release expansion) the no one brought one. It’s own personal dps did not outweigh the contribution of dragoons piercing/eye/litany and ninja being ninja. So SE buffed their love child to a degree that in SHB it was broken. Im sorry but both BLM and SAM were way too powerful in shadowbringers.

Now with all that lovely history said, here we are in current day and because it’s not samurai being too dog it’s someone else everyone is screeching about their version of balance. “Dps without buffs should do the most damage” or my favourite “why would you bring a samurai when it brings no buffs” well.. in shadowbringers it was quite the reverse. Not having a samurai was a dps loss due to how broken they was. Was this ok? Nope… no it wasn’t ok, it was dumb. And their synergy with dancer was a larger problem!

So I aim this at a few people screeching in this thread for 45 pages (specifically at you zira because you’re the most vocal person with your eyes painted on) it’s ok for samurai to not be too dps. The margin for error is within acceptable values. Get over it.

[IruruCece]

A post from "This isn't ACTUALLY my main"

I don't think you get to be taken seriously at all, ever. ShB SAM wasn't broken in the least. Did you also level that job on your other main?

[Wyakin]

I don't think you get to be taken seriously at all, ever. ShB SAM wasn't broken in the least. Did you also level that job on your other main?

Why don’t you go check out my main character. Enyalios Ares. Check my logs and my history. Notice that I’ve probably got a damn sight more experience than you do. So take me seriously or not, samurai was broken in shadowbringers. The gulf between the top dps and everyone else was far far above the 1-3% it currently is and yet here you are screeching.

I personally don't think you get to be taken seriously since your raiding experience amounts to diddly squat.