Other MMOs and their History

[ArkenaeuxBelmont]

I can def agree with that to, a lot of the core identity of WoW I enjoyed is gone now a days and I no longer enjoy it for the same reasons I did before. The design behind what made be care to even get into raiding in Wrath is gone for example, Its not fun for me to raid lead, its not fun for me to gear, its just not fun, but I can see the appeal. That being said, I think adding bigger raids statics and PFers can tacklewouldn;t be a bad idea, we've done it twice so far, and it would be nice to more content like that regulaly, it wouldn't take away from XIVs core.

We have the Bozja system for fates and Critical engagements, creating more open world content in that vein wouldn't take away from XIVs core. And those are the type of changes I'd like to see, similar ideas to what WoW has done, but in a very XIV way. if that makes sense.

Definitely would like to see more open world type content. I'm reminded specifically, off the top of my head, of the Legion world-spanning puzzle hunts for the mount. The one that took you into the crypts under Kharazan at the end? Little tidbits like that are awesome, and with a world as rich as XIV has with its lore, is ripe for adding little things like this. Sightseeing log is cool, but how about expanding that with the special puzzles/hunts to do with a mount at the end as a reward? Or a unique glamour set for the long journey of going to all those places?

Larger scaled content too could be improved. DR was a step in the right direction and I think a foundation for what the team could do with bigger 48 man raids. As someone who really, really loved the 48 man raids back in Vanilla WoW (For the scope, scale, etc), I'd love to see a modern take evolve with these. Looking back without the rose tinted glasses, the old WoW Vanilla 48 man raids were... not hard or complex. Most tank and spank with one or two unique mechanics. They felt epic, but the reason lots took so long to get "world firsts" on was that back then, no one had a clue and most of us were terrible players. Or the boss was so overtuned that it was unkillable.

There's plenty of room for expansion on the content that XIV DOES offer. I want to see what the team has in mind for it. I've only been disappointed in a few instances over the years, and the majority of their releases have made me decently happy, so I've got a positive outlook for it.

[Miles064]

@ IdowhatIwant

I had to accept the inevitable that FF14 had more of what I could enjoy, leaving WoW as a 90% of the time PvP'er to a game's PvP is just a mega zerg fest with little individual difference made in the match.

It took me several years to become accustomed to FF14 and actually explore other facets I enjoyed, and I can say my blood pressure about playing an MMO has dropped significantly.

I believe your points efforting are valid but I do not see the evidence to them.

In my experience the current WoW melee experience has been run up to enemy hit 1-4 and repeat. Rogue CC has been thrown out of necessity, people scream at you for wanting to CC mobs instead of RUSH RUSH RUSH PULL PULL. Because content is so casual nothing is like experiencing Magister's Terrace heroic for the first time.
Pally/Shammy utility has been thrown away.

In FF14 I can tell completely who is int he party from the unique buffs and debuffs going around. The different degrees of support. Knowing how my tanks are going to mitigate their damage because I know how holmgang, hallowed ground, superbolide, and living dead all work separately.
I know which tanks have weaker HoTs than most and others having burst healing.
I can tell how dungeons are going to vary in runs and smoothness depending on makeup and which class excels in AoE vs Single target or even group buffs.

To me, these classes represent much more flavor than Modern WoW. The 8 Seals, the 7 Auras, the huge list of totems and various buffs are all gone.

It's walk up to enemy, whack it with X-strike ability, stormstrike, mortal strike, crusader strike, etc, repeat 4 button rotation.

You havent played WoW in a while right? I've used more "non dps" utility in the last 2 wow expacs than i have in the entire time i've been playing ff14(started before HW came out). Cap and earthbind totems on necrotic weeks to help the tank kite, taking storm bolt over double time to help interrupt dangerous casts( channeled stuns, a spell that hits the whole party with shadow dmg and puts a undispellable debuff that increases shadow dmg, etc), kidney shotting the beasts that get enraged in the one of the shadowlands dungeons( or dispelling it on other classes as that buff is an enrage), etc. Sure "sap square and dps skull" is long gone and you dont really see these commonly used til base mythics at least but wow still has this.

Honestly the thing i miss most about wow is the combat, the flexibility from the talents rows, the idea the 2 of us can both be playing arms war or frost mage but have small differences that are not just how much stats we have. That isn't to say they were always well balanced but if you are not the top .5% or w/e why do you care unless it is super bad(pretty sure glacial spike was a dps loss vs not selecting anything in that row for a bit which is not ok).

That being said when I have asked for "something like mythic+" i didn't want mythic+ as is just dungeons content worth running that you could keep going higher in. Doesn't need to have keystones, or gear drops that scale with dungeon lvl, or 3 chesting, or any of that. Hell Torghast is just ff deep dungeons+ so if SE were to make thier own deep dungeon+ it should turn out solid as long as it isnt spammed with fates. I do admit I liked torghast because it felt like risk of rain but with a WoW twist, which isn't going to be everyones cup of tea. I don't see SE making the mistake of forcing it on you though, as that goes against what they have built up and I support it.

I like the combat in this game. I just want more stuff to fight in this game that isn't mindless fates, weekly lockouts, or painfully easy "expert" dungeons. Is that so bad?

[Puremallace]

I've been playing Since Vanilla all the way until Shadowlands actually, a few small breaks here and there, but I have a lot of experience with that game. I'm also not talking about time played, but more so how a lot of the newer players can learned to be more accepting of other players coming in. Instead of constantly knocking the bridge down, and this doesnt solely apply to WoW, ofc, why not try to make more chances to look beyond things as *our MMO and their MMO* and look at the genre as a whole and how things can be learned from the past of those games, and how a lot of the varied ideas, nuances, and other aspects can be improved upon.

Unlike you I stopped rewarding failure while expecting change. I played from Vanilla to Wrath and saw the failure of a direction they were taking the MMO constantly denying that their faux faction war was killing the MMO or their embrace of ever more grinding concepts. The failures to deliver any new content for years at a time while providing mediocre excuses and empty promises.

I played BFA and saw these systems that WoW players praise rip a community to shreds while the MMO director laughed at feedback about the constant failures he kept pushing out with yet more endless excuses. I predicted the COLLASAL failure that Shadowlands would be 10 MINUTES after it was announced and the exact reason why and that post got a thpusand like and 40,000+ views and not a single one was from a developer obviously because they ignored the feedback.

The day I see Square Enix start to lax off I will stop rewarding them but as it stands they are very far from hitting that low bar set by Blizzard.

No suggestion posted on these forums are shot down without debate on the reasons why people think it might fail in execution in FF14. Stating that feedback is ignored is not valid complaint because I have an extensive forum history here and would be able to back up your claim if it existed.

[IdowhatIwant]

@Alklios

WoW Dps design is bad and has been for some time. FFXIV dps design is decent at best but most play the same. Best example I can give on this was a friend was asking me about reaper. I told him is basically plays like melee machinest. You have a gauge to fill using 1-2-3 or a CD/CDGCD to fill it faster. Once the gauge is built you go fast for a bit. Sure there are some differences but the similarities like machinest second gauge summons a robot to go mindlessly do damage, and reapers first gauge is used to build it's go fast gauge but the game play style shares more than it differs.

WoW tank design is very unique where each one has different methods of mitigating damage vs FFXIV every tank has maybe 2 or 3 unique CDs but essentially function to mitigate damage through the same means. Your example holmgang, hallowed ground, superbolide, and living dead they are all the same thing with subtle differences and one having 0 use in solo play. WoW tanks, you have DK which is a more reactive tank healing up and shielding itself after taking damage. War which sets damage shields on it self to mitigate damage as well as blocking damage with it's shield. Monk which staggers damage into a dot and is able to completely get rid of some of that damage. Pally self healing attacks and focus on blocking with it's shield. Druid high armor stats large HP pool. See FF had these things before but they were removed in place of the more homogenized designed tanks we see today.

FFXIV healers I am sorry, all your skills do pretty much the same thing with different names. Where WoW healers all play fairly differently. Disc priest, shields people and heals those that have been shielded based on there damage dealing spells. Druid HoTs. Pally melee healer. Shaman / Holy priest more pure healing. Again we used to have this sort of thing in FF but homogenization.

Now I am not saying these classes need to be complex design, or difficult, but they need more unique flair than a single buff or cd.

FF is very rush rush, most dungeons people are doing wall to wall pulls and that has been going on since ARR. I don't see a big difference between the games in that aspect so I wonder if we have been playing the same game. I see just as much bad crap happen with players in FF as I have in WoW. Best example of this just look at your party finder now. I will guarantee many groups will want people to be geared to ilvl 565+ to do ex trials that were designed to be done at ilvl 560. The proof they are designed for ilvl 560 is in the actual requirements to queue for it(not that anyone uses this function for ex). Surely people remember the skip soar or disband groups for Zurvan back in HW? Is what you are doing is being biased for FF and going back to x is good y is bad with out looking deeper at each. We can't always just praise FF devs because we enjoy current FF we also have to give the FF devs constructive criticism because we want to continue to enjoy it and see it improve because it is not perfect.

Hope some of this was the evidence you were looking for.

[Theox]

>Other MMOs and their History
>long, boring WoW vs 14 discussion
Where's the history and where are the other MMOs?

[Lunalepsy]

As the title suggests I wonder how many people are interested in the history of other MMOs and how they got here to where they are today. Atm I can say I've seen the rise and fall of several MMOs, and these things happened for various reasons with each.

I'll use the lovely buzztopic as an example:

WoW was not as bad as it is today, and personally(I can be wrong) I feel many like to harp on its failures vs its success. I doubt it has to be said to many but A lot of the current state of XIV mirrors a point in time where WoW was much the same. From devlopment choices, to a massive influx of players. Even now, similar issues have been talked about with XIV, from time gating, to adding more hardcore content,to what a new job should be. These may not be WoW and XIV specific, but given how Yoshida has developed the games, they've been similarly handled.

So I guess my question, and point of this topic is, if Yoshida is willing to learned from WoW, good and bad, why does the community constantly resort to tribalism, over talking to WoW players about what can be done to keep XIV from possibly going down a similar path. Learning from them the history of how the players affected that game, just like Yoshida is learning from the live history of the Development and company side of WoW, and how that affected the game.

I personally think we should make it a point to do so as players. We never know what the future brings and it only take a few things changing for similar issues to arise within XIV.

I doubt I have to say it, but no, not a troll thread, just an honest thought I had since WoW vs. XIV is literally everywhere now a days.

Edit: As I can see trolls, or people who just refuse to get my point, I can word things better.

Why is it hard for XIV players to try and sit down and understand why someone who's played Rift, Aeon, Runescape, ESO, SWOTR, And Yes, as much as you hate to see it, WoW, left those games for 14. If their game was doing bad, if it was the company, the players, both?

In that games history, is how it changed possibly for the worse, or changed to make large amounts of players from those games come here.
(This is not implying any MMO or game I mentioned is doing bad or that large amounts of those players are playing XIV now, just using them as examples)

You can take XIV and WoW, and change them out for other MMOs. It really doesnt matter, WoW was just used as an example, given my personal knowledge of that game, and how it was used in XIVs development.

From understanding these games, and how they got here, it could help players understand XIV better, and possibly help make it, an already p great MMO, into one that has fewer problems, or allow better player feed back. Things like that

I wish FFXIV would copy things from Ragnarok Online!

[TristanX]

>Other MMOs and their History
>long, boring WoW vs 14 discussion
Where's the history and where are the other MMOs?

Warhammer Online got one of the best PvP system.

All classes uses AP.
Tank is really a tank. Annoys opponents and helps soak damage.
Castle and fortress fights are fun.
Scenarios (battlegrounds) are great.
Zone captures to advance into opponent's city.
You can see many knockbacks.

Sitting on same content for years killed the game. EA decided not to renew license for Warhammer franchise.

[strawberrycake]

>Other MMOs and their History
>long, boring WoW vs 14 discussion
Where's the history and where are the other MMOs?

The point of my thread was for players to speak about other MMOs from their PoV as players and talk about how said MMOs changed over time. I can only go off of my own experience, you're more then welcome to bring up some of your own.

In doing so other MMOs players stoped being seen as pariah and it can create more instances of people being understanding.

But snark helps too I guess

[Alklios]

@IdowhatIwant,

By all means speak the reasons that FF14 devs could improve their games. There are some major points I'd make to a thread asking for them.

Here I wanted to unload a tight kept trunk of experiences and salt encountered in the major MMO title AKA WoW from 2016 onwards and explain the history of what made it good for me the prior decade before.

My stances in this post are very strictly anti-new WoW player wants backed with alot of salt and disdain for being run out of my favorite game as I didn't have the time to commit to the Borrowed Power grind and all progressive proposals to go back to the way things were spat on and laughed at by kids that ruined an epic game.

It may be a point to agree to disagree which of the 2 has more flavor.

Compelling me to play every day for hours a day and forced PVE, combined with my old player demographic being completely ignored and presented with a bandaid of classic I didn't ask for, and being further insulted and belittled by 'hardcore' players lacking any achievement or accomplishment coming in after 70% of the game skills had been pruned causing the skill ceiling to meet the skill floor lost my sub. I stuck it out for a long time as recently as a year ago.

Everything the current Modern players want in the game being transferred to FF14, it is not realistic. It will not be found. The devs do not believe in throwaway content or imbalancing utilities so much so many classes become utterly useless.

Rushing, is in regards to players burning content and refusing to occupy themselves in another form or fashion calling a game in the end 'terrible'. It's the same as chugging a good alcohol with a decent flavor and spitting a review it tasted terrible and now you feel horrible.

Modern WoW players and devs took away a great joy from me and millions of players and spat in their faces wanting a return to prior progressive ways. I want no part in it again. Nor this game to be any modicum like it.

[PaulH]

I didn't play WOW so cant add any value.

EQ/EQ2 - oof. Open world hell and the fear. Mob trains would knock out your party so be careful and on the lookout. Mobs would train and ride your ass till you zoned.

Needed to go to Qeynos from freeport any Druids or Wizards around for a Portal cant just ride an aetheryte and traversing zones was fear of being killed.

Oh crap I died and need to do a corpse run and hope I wouldn't die again and i need to loot my corpse to get my items back and death was meaningful with exp penalties and I could lose XP to drop a level. I hope a friendly player would give me a spirit of wolf to make me run faster, buff please and some coin for reward to random players who did.

Hell levels when it took forever in a grind fest, parties working together to defeat things. Trading was done by auction/shouts and bargaining. It felt back then we had to interact with players as an mmo.

I think for me there is too much handed to a player so quickly, time is more precious to people. The above isn't 100% warm happy memories of a golden era it had traits where impact, player interactions with parties and I felt fear/danger and worry if some nasty beast was chasing me. Running through zones to get somewhere bought danger and risk/reward. The endless grinding, camping for mobs and lack of quests wasn't great either and quite tedious at times. I think I miss the element of feeling like I had a long enduring challenge and had to really earn it and the satisfaction of getting it and feeling proud for a long time. Now it is very quick consumption and the reward doesn't feel as satisfying. I wasn't a hardcore 12 hour days playing EQ, never had the time to sink like that with real world stuff I need to do.