The Devs need to put THUDERCLAP without target

[Valence]

Seconding this, nobody cares about teleporting to a specific target. Just aim and dash, that's why it feels great on RPR or DNC. And I know you're doing it differently for some other classes for identity/difference reasons, but the only difference we're getting is just a usability that feels way worse:

- If I need a target, I can't dash if I'm not in range.
- If I need a target, and if it's not the target i'm hitting, then I need to deselect, select a new target, and then use the ability, all of this in between very fast GCDs. No thanks. And introducing macros for every party member isn't a solution either, I don't have hotbar space for 7 people, on top of macros to be extremely unresponsive for the reasons we all know.
- I sympathize with ninjas, theirs is almost worse to use (ground targeting is awful and in spite of the recent changes, it still is awkward to use, and when you have people macroing this to targets, you're left to wonder why it doesn't just uses targets instead... oh wait, then why not a simple dash?).

[Raikai]

Truth be told, I feel that SGE's dash should not require a target as well. Yes they will all be the same as the DNC's... but what else you can do with a dash/gap closer? If Thunderclap doesn't do any damage, requiring a target is just a liability for the sake of it... this doesn't promote interesting gameplay in any situation.

[ssunny2008]

Truth be told, I feel that SGE's dash should not require a target as well. Yes they will all be the same as the DNC's... but what else you can do with a dash/gap closer? If Thunderclap doesn't do any damage, requiring a target is just a liability for the sake of it... this doesn't promote interesting gameplay in any situation.

If we´re talking about the truth, why does SGE even need a dash? It´s a healer and already mobile af. And the animations are some wings, like wtf?! WHM wings on SGE? Why does the 4 mini-rocket-turrets don´t work as "wings" aka jetpack?

As i´ve said earlier, have a target has it´s pro´s especially for melee classes. You want as fast as possible into melee range and it´s super at certain knockbacks without an antiknockback-skill or mechanics like Shiva icelit in E12s to keep melee-uptime easily. Having some freedom is great too, but i see the "pros of needing a target" as the better ones on any melee class, yes even in PvP.
(And how does a 15y dash on point is interesting gameplay?)

[Raikai]

If we´re talking about the truth, why does SGE even need a dash? It´s a healer and already mobile af. And the animations are some wings, like wtf?! WHM wings on SGE? Why does the 4 mini-rocket-turrets don´t work as "wings"?

As i´ve said earlier, have a target has it´s pro´s especially for melee classes. You want as fast as possible into melee range and it´s super at certain knockbacks without an antiknockback-skill or mechanics like Shiva icelit in E12s to keep easily melee-uptime. Having some freedom is great too, but i see the "pros of needing a target" as the better ones on any melee class, yes even in PvP.

I didn't play a lot of SGE, but doesn't some of their actions require melee range on your allies? Anyways, this could all go well if the target was optional.

You have a target? You thunderclap to it... you dont? You thunderclap forward.

[ssunny2008]

I didn't play a lot of SGE, but doesn't some of their actions require melee range on your allies? Anyways, this could all go well if the target was optional.

You have a target? You thunderclap to it... you dont? You thunderclap forward.

The AOE of SGE works like the SCH one in a circle around you. And you´ve a half-close range damage skill with 45s, which you preferable use in the raid-burstphases or just to move if needed. But with the DoT and overall 1,5s casttime, a dash is seriously not needed. You can move around as you want unless you spam Dosis to do damage.

The 2nd part is atleast something i can agree with. But i guess some ppl will go ham with it. xD

[Raikai]

The AOE of SGE works like the SCH one in a circle around you. And you´ve a half-close range damage skill with 45s, which you preferable use in the raid-burstphases or just to move if needed. But with the DoT and overall 1,5s casttime, a dash is seriously not needed. You can move around as you want unless you spam Dosis to do damage.

The 2nd part is atleast something i can agree with. But i guess some ppl will go ham with it. xD

Honestly, I could just see SGE's dash the same way I see DNC's... pure QoL convenience to - for example - give you more error to escape telegraphs. Just like jobs with personal shields... They don't really impact a lot of stuff, but are nice to have when you have a weaving window during an unavoidable AoE.

With DNC, which is the job I'm working on maining, I could do my stuff just as fine without An Avant, because all of the moments I need to be in close-ish range are very predictable every 30s and the job can be moving 100% of the time. I just save An Avant charges for... when I'm distracted and miss telegraph prepositioning or when I want to get there ahead of everybody else to show the safe spot (or not when I'm totally wrong LOL).

[Valence]

DNC doesn't need a dash as per being a rPhys job, especially now that the melee skills arent even used anymore for single target. Yet, it feels great, works great, is a perk of the job, and I'm fine with it. On the other hand you have actual jobs requiring gap closers (melees), and half of them are absolutely awkward or atrocious to use conveniently. The only reason I can see for this is "class identity" because they don't want all the gap closers to work the same... at the cost of usability.

If we´re talking about the truth, why does SGE even need a dash? It´s a healer and already mobile af. And the animations are some wings, like wtf?! WHM wings on SGE? Why does the 4 mini-rocket-turrets don´t work as "wings" aka jetpack?

As i´ve said earlier, have a target has it´s pro´s especially for melee classes. You want as fast as possible into melee range and it´s super at certain knockbacks without an antiknockback-skill or mechanics like Shiva icelit in E12s to keep melee-uptime easily. Having some freedom is great too, but i see the "pros of needing a target" as the better ones on any melee class, yes even in PvP.
(And how does a 15y dash on point is interesting gameplay?)

What are the pros of needing a target? I don't really get it? For people playing in standard camera mode or something?

[ssunny2008]

What are the pros of needing a target? I don't really get it? For people playing in standard camera mode or something?

- You don´t have to turn your camera, if you´ve something in the target, you just click that button to jump to it, no matter if it´s in front or behind you. So far you can execute your last GCD, move 2 steps out and press the dash without and camerawiggling.
- You don´t have to take care about the distance. It´ll always bring you in melee-range and that´s all you want.
- And again, it´s superior to play against a bunch of knockback-mechanics to keep uptime. E.g. Leviathan or even the current P4 raid.
- It´s impossible to jump of the platform or into deadly walls.

[Valence]

- I guess it's a problem on the UI/user's end then. I'm always manipulating my camera, it's effortless for me to do so here and doesn't constitute a con at all in my case. It's as fast and efficient for me to not need the target.

- That's fair enough on the distance issue, although imo never really a problem on gigantic bosses unless very, very specific mechanics involved.

- I don't see how it is superior in Leviathan at all. Actually a lot less hazardous since you have very little control on direction when dashing with a target.

- It's very possible to do it if the platform has gaping holes.

All in all though, as much as I can grant you that some of those cons can pass for cons to my eyes, I've never really had any issue with them on DNC or RPR so far.

[ssunny2008]

- I guess it's a problem on the UI/user's end then. I'm always manipulating my camera, it's effortless for me to do so here and doesn't constitute a con at all in my case. It's as fast and efficient for me to not need the target.

- That's fair enough on the distance issue, although imo never really a problem on gigantic bosses unless very, very specific mechanics involved.

- I don't see how it is superior in Leviathan at all. Actually a lot less hazardous since you have very little control on direction when dashing with a target.

- It's very possible to do it if the platform has gaping holes.

All in all though, as much as I can grant you that some of those cons can pass for cons to my eyes, I've never really had any issue with them on DNC or RPR so far.

Of course it´s effortless once you got used too it. But it´s more effortless to just press this button. x)

I think you´re talking about E3, but i´m talking about the level 50 trial, which has been the last unreal primal too. You´re able to keep like 100% uptime with a target dash. Just stay where he appears to bounce his head on the platform, you can immediately attack him and at the moment he hits the platform, use your dash.
It´s pretty much impossible with ranged-locked dashes and you´re only able to use your antiknockback 2 times this fight, but a lot more slides gonna happen. I do actually see the same as the current P4. It´s just safe uptime and so far more damage.
And you´ve some control on the dash, it´ll always be a direct dash to the closes point of the targets circle.

Of course it´s no problem if you got used to stuff, but objectively seen a target dash does everything you want as melee without much effort. Not talking about disengages so far.
Just my opinion, but srsly DNC´s dash isn´t that great. The distance is too short, you´re stucked for a moment in the beginning. Often enough, when i dash out of an aoe, i eat it anyway and it feels more like "If i would´ve moved that step, i wouldn´t have gotten some damage." It can be used more freely than RPR´s in small arenas, but there i´m at the point, hey it´s DNC... you can preposition yourself all day long. A dash just for the dance-pull or pvp?