Summoner Needs to be buffed

[ForteNightshade]

I have bad news for you they will never buff SMN enough to surpass RDM, rdm rotation is harder so higher dps is warranted.

If we're going to use this logic then Reaper should be the weakest melee. Not only does it boast the best utility among melee in Arcane Crest, it's incredibly easy to pick up and play even at a fairly decent level. Additionally, it has no odd optimization quirks like Samurai or suffer from animation lock like Dragoon.

And yet it's not only the best Melee but the best overall DPS job in the entire game. So the difficult logic simply doesn't work.

If physical ranged gets lower DPS because of mobility then so too should summoner.

Except the Range aren't competing against anyone else but themselves. You'll always take one of them whereas Summoner's DPS is so low, it's essentially worthless. There's simply zero reason for any group to even consider Summoner come Savage. Red Mage simply beats it at every category while Black Mage is better for speeds. Summoner has no niche or even reason to exist at its current level.

[MaelleRiou]

Except the Range aren't competing against anyone else but themselves. You'll always take one of them whereas Summoner's DPS is so low, it's essentially worthless. There's simply zero reason for any group to even consider Summoner come Savage. Red Mage simply beats it at every category while Black Mage is better for speeds. Summoner has no niche or even reason to exist at its current level.

Summoner DPS is very slightly lower than red mage. Summoner's mobility more than makes up the 200ish DPS difference.

[ForteNightshade]

Summoner DPS is very slightly lower than red mage. Summoner's mobility more than makes up the 200ish DPS difference.

Mobility rarely matters in this game. In fact, just look at the entirety of Eden. Not once was Range's free mobility a noteworthy advantage. At best, you could argue it made Black Smokers less annoying but all three Casters had no real issue with it. Meanwhile, you had mechanics like Towers in E7S and Light Rampant which would have been perfect to design around Range mobility. Instead, they pick DPS randomly, resulting in the Melee having to disengage, thus rendering any free mobility meaningless. Casters weren't hindered by either of these mechanics. Even TEA didn't have a single mechanic any Caster couldn't accomplish.

When you then factor in Insta-caster Raise potential and Magick Barrier, that added 200 DPS discrepancy is just insulting. Summoner simply can't compete with Red Mage and will be completely locked out of groups just like Ninja was in 5.0. Ironically, Ninja's looking for a repeat of that alongside Dragoon as both are completely outclassed by Reaper.

[Gallus]

Job complexity is never a factor, surprised so much people bring it up.

As for SMN itself, it should be more on par with RDM than it is now. You can't have RDM doing more damage + having virtually infinite raises (both extremely relevant) vs SMN being more...mobile...and easier, you guys can't be serious.

SMN should be doing the same damage as RDM, and at best, SMN's mobility being taxed should be understood in the form of RDM being able to chain raise.

[Duskane]

all 3 casters are mobile so its hardly anything to factor in for any of them,
SMN should be around RDM maybe SMN should be a little higher since RDM is basically almost a must for prog with magic barrier,full power embolden and reliable quick raises
while SMN has a 30 second 3% damage buff and a raise that needs swift cast that SMNs probably wont want to use because of Ifrit and slipstream cast time,
I don't think SMN should be hitting MNK/BLM levels like it did in SB/ShB but it shouldn't be this low.

If we're going to use this logic then Reaper should be the weakest melee. Not only does it boast the best utility among melee in Arcane Crest, it's incredibly easy to pick up and play even at a fairly decent level. Additionally, it has no odd optimization quirks like Samurai or suffer from animation lock like Dragoon.

And yet it's not only the best Melee but the best overall DPS job in the entire game. So the difficult logic simply doesn't work.

I would hardly call Arcane crest the best its good but i wouldn't put it over brotherhood or trick

[Shurrikhan]

If we're going to use this logic then Reaper should be the weakest melee. Not only does it boast the best utility among melee in Arcane Crest, it's incredibly easy to pick up and play even at a fairly decent level. Additionally, it has no odd optimization quirks like Samurai or suffer from animation lock like Dragoon.

And yet it's not only the best Melee but the best overall DPS job in the entire game. So the difficult logic simply doesn't work.

By your logic, that whatever's the best must deserve to be the best, then Summoner surely deserves to be where it is, too?

Otherwise, why would you say that SMN should be buffed, which would indicate that the devs are not infallible in their job tuning, even as you indicate that Reaper's place, equally subject to fallibility, proves that difficulty must be a non-factor?

Summoner deserves to be a bit higher on the basis of having little utility. Reaper deserves to be lower than, say, SAM or BLM, however.

Note that damage buffs are already accounted for in rDPS; if Monk were to deservedly fall behind SAM, it'd have to be because Mantra and in-expansion applications of Riddle of Earth in serious content amount to more utility than any difference in optimization complexity between them (if any exists in Monk's favor at all) is considered by the devs to be worth.

If Monk instead happened to be noticeably more complex to optimize than SAM, then it wouldn't be an issue for their contextual dps to be neck-and-neck despite Monk's having Mantra and a slightly stronger defensive (assuming the raid damage isn't frequent enough for Third Eye to push SAM ahead and is high enough for a 20% mitigation skill to actually somehow save a healer GCD despite that GCD almost certainly being AoE, if used at all).

[ForteNightshade]

I would hardly call Arcane crest the best its good but i wouldn't put it over brotherhood or trick

That's Arcane Circle. Arcane Crest is their mitigation. which gives them a 10% shield and 100 potency raid wide heal upon breaking. All on a 30s CD. No other Melee comes close to this sort of utility. Shadeshift is the closest comparison, which sits on a 120s CD. Dragoon has absolutely nothing while Mantra only works on GCDs healers don't want to cast but doesn't have a shield component. In a vacuum, this is fine... but when Reaper also brings damage utility and boasts the highest DPS by a mile.

By your logic, that whatever's the best must deserve to be the best, then Summoner surely deserves to be where it is, too?

... you might want to reread what I said because that wasn't my logic in the slightest. The whole crux was to illustrate why the difficulty argument is flawed. You cannot, in good conscious, say Summoner deserves to be incredibly weak due to its ease of play yet ignore that Reaper is both the best Melee DPS and arguably the best DPS overall in the entire game while also being among the easiest. If we're going to hold that over Summoner, then Reaper needs to be pulling less than Ninja. Once again, this is why balance around difficulty doesn't work and isn't something the dev team ever consistently follows.

[rewd]

That's Arcane Circle. Arcane Crest is their mitigation. which gives them a 10% shield and 100 potency raid wide heal upon breaking. All on a 30s CD. No other Melee comes close to this sort of utility. Shadeshift is the closest comparison, which sits on a 120s CD. Dragoon has absolutely nothing while Mantra only works on GCDs healers don't want to cast but doesn't have a shield component. In a vacuum, this is fine... but when Reaper also brings damage utility and boasts the highest DPS by a mile.

Mantra works on healing actions, which include oGCDs. I would still rate it worse than AC, but I wanted to clarify this.

[ForteNightshade]

Mantra works on healing actions, which include oGCDs. I would still rate it worse than AC, but I wanted to clarify this.

My mistake then. At least that puts it closer to Arcane Crest but still not better. Frankly, Crest needs to either lose the Cure potency or have its CD doubled. It's a bit silly how they essentially made it a better version of Shadeshift but on a fourth of the CD.

[Shurrikhan]

You cannot, in good conscious, say Summoner deserves to be incredibly weak due to its ease of play yet ignore that Reaper is both the best Melee DPS and arguably the best DPS overall in the entire game while also being among the easiest.

I haven't. I literally just said that Reaper is most likely the outlier in early design and deserves to be nerfed. Which then means there is no <the devs have everything tuned per their intent already despite this being the start of the expansion" warrant by which to insist Summoner must remain as low as it is.

If we're going to hold that over Summoner, then Reaper needs to be pulling less than Ninja.

I already agreed with this.

Once again, this is why balance around difficulty doesn't work and isn't something the dev team ever consistently follows.

No, that tuning is, at the very launch of an expansion, unfinished... in no way indicates that complexity cannot ever be a factor in how the devs tune jobs.

When was the last time Machinist was a top-tier rDPS? When it was complex.
When was Summoner a top-tier rDPS? When it was complex.

... you might want to reread what I said because that wasn't my logic in the slightest. The whole crux was to illustrate why the difficulty argument is flawed.

You used Reaper an example (of equally early tuning) to indicate that it must be indicative of the dev's balancing logic --insisting that Reaper must be ranked where it is because the devs meant it to be ranked where it is-- even while complaining that Summoner, equally an example of early tuning, must not deserve to be ranked where it is.

Neither should be where they are. Reaper provides too much utility and too little complexity to deserve to have the highest or second highest rDPS. Summoner provides too little utility, even given its low complexity until being perfectly min-maxed, to be as low as it is.