Summoner Needs to be buffed

[Gruntler]

Yup, although still I think we SMn are too low. I feel as RDM should be the lowest caster because it has all the same utility and mobility but also has dual cast. Which can be used whenever vs swiftcast every 60sec.

If you think SMN, which only has three casts every minute, has less mobility than anything that isn't a Machinist, Bard, or Dancer, you're having a laugh mate.

[Shuuli]

If you think SMN, which only has three casts every minute, has less mobility than anything that isn't a Machinist, Bard, or Dancer, you're having a laugh mate.

I played both Summoner and Dancer in the new savage raids and cleared one with each so far. Now playing as dancer in P3S, trying to clear.

100% can tell you that summoner is nowhere near as mobile as a dancer that does not have cast time abilities at all... I don't even know how this class has been listed here, these jobs have very different mechanics.

Casting my dance steps while I move will not break the chain of the cast. However, summoner loses a spell if there is a change in the scenario that does not allows you to stay close to the boss and cast the Crimson Strike (430 potency) after Crimson Cyclone. Or Summoner loses uptime if the summoner wants to wait to actually cast it...

Dancer will only lose potency or uptime if they are messing up their cast, with too early casts or miss click of the buttons... or if they dont know how to use dash to keep potency between mechanics to facilitate uptime of the dances dmg.

But I agree that Summoner is quite mobile compared to some other classes. Personally i dont mind being immobile. At the moment it feels like i cant decide if I am supposed to be a spell spammer replacement of red mage or a very low budget black mage with Ifrit. If they fix Ifrit I will be happy.

[SomeRandomHuman]

They need to ether just put aetherflow stacks to the axe on SMN. Just leave fester and painflaire as 10-15 sec oGCD abilities. If they wanna keep aetherflow stacks then use that to generate the summons or when using a summon you get an aetherflow stack and at 3 stacks it lets you use bahamut/pheonix demis.

[Shiroe]

The heals are honestly kinda meh since they're tied to Phoenix, I mean are you going to hold Phoenix until healing is '' needed ''?
It's not like the Reaper shield that can just be used on demand.

I dunno if we should count a self shield either.

agree, the phoenix healing us actually useless (just remove it), and give us a tick mire dps.., so atleast Rdm (with lots of utility), isnt still ahead of us

... Smn used to be high dps with little utility (compared to other casters & melee)
... now its low dps with little utility :/ (did Yoshi wanna play safe, since im the last Smn changes, he overshot the Smn dps?? .. so we will expect a Smn buff in the future?)

[Anvaire]

agree, the phoenix healing us actually useless (just remove it), and give us a tick mire dps.., so atleast Rdm (with lots of utility), isnt still ahead of us

... Smn used to be high dps with little utility (compared to other casters & melee)
... now its low dps with little utility :/ (did Yoshi wanna play safe, since im the last Smn changes, he overshot the Smn dps?? .. so we will expect a Smn buff in the future?)

My read on it is they are waiting until they have more numbers to make a decision. They band-aided SMN with a small boost to Phoenix and then will look to feedback and savage numbers. Its likely rotational changes will be implemeted in 6.1 - but this should be caveated with that any change is not going to be ground breaking, so we may find thats its only a change to the mechanics of how the arcanum summons work. Which also will change the potencies of those attacks.

I think arguing over mobility and utility and the like to justify where smn should sit its a pointless endevour. Not a single one of us knows where it shoudl really fit because we dont know the matrix they use for balance beyond More utility = less dps. There is no way of knowing if the Physical ranged dps is lower due to mobility, or due to the utility they have because there is no metric to apply to each skill.

What we can say is that Rotational changes are required as the overwhelming sentiment from the summoner threads is that the job is a little too simple. I see that from those who like and those who hate the rework.

In any case. Hopefully changes will come and the job will improve.

[Shurrikhan]

Listen my reply was mostly to this whole thread. The reason I said I didn't understand your post because is that I'm tired of all the arguments that is involving phy range and smn, my brain was melting yesterday from reading all these dumb posts. Nothing aginst you and your post personally. So really didnt need the explanation. I even put that in my replay "Most due to the fact I'm just tired of this argument of "SMN belongs with phy range bc its easy/mobility""

It... does, though, so long as casts (or, more importantly, the mobility conflicts they'd cause) are the primary criteria. By portion of mobility conflicts, SMN belongs nearer to Physical Ranged than to RDM, let alone BLM.

SMN casts less than 13% of the time, and can bank those casts to be used away from necessary movement (creating next to zero mobility conflicts, whereas the likes of RDM have to rely on fortuitous timing, Swiftcast, or a held [temporarily wasted] Acceleration, for a sum of 2 delays available per minute without burning gauge and potentially delaying rotation away from buff sync).

Cast times and mobility conflicts cannot significantly be what separates Summoner's performance from that of Physical Ranged. So, unless the likes of Tactician, by itself, is somehow seen as worth some 3% rDPS more than all of Summoner's utility combined and Bard is simply overtuned at the moment, Summoner and RDM should be nearer to Physical Ranged.

Either specific utility, the other difference between Casters and Rangers, explains the gap --strange explanation though it would be-- or the situation is not yet correctly tuned for Physical Ranged and you should probably stop telling them that they're fine.

:: Hopefully all this is simply a matter of XIV refusing to do potency nerfs and therefore being afraid of overbuffing jobs right now, but for that same reason it also makes little sense to tell other underperforming jobs that they deserve to be there -- be that "per tradition" or whatever other criteria that can't be applied evenly to the currently better-performing jobs. I do think SMN should have nearly the rDPS of RDM, if only because its noticeably greater mobility hasn't amounted to all that much in most among recent raid designs and it has faintly, faintly less utility. As the likes of Dancer and especially Machinist have even less utility, though, their gap should likewise be far smaller, under similar logic.

Tl;dr: If anyone seemed at all miffed, it's only because in the same thread you asked for buffs to job A, you also kind of off-handedly told all jobs there-below that they deserve their place while ignoring what little criteria, in practice, actually sets them apart.

[TiF]

If you think SMN, which only has three casts every minute, has less mobility than anything that isn't a Machinist, Bard, or Dancer, you're having a laugh mate.

Never said less mobility. If I recall I said same as rdm. Only difference is RDM utility is way better. Folks be acting like other classes don't have mobility. The only caster who isn't mobile is BLM.

[Risvertasashi]

Never said less mobility. If I recall I said same as rdm. Only difference is RDM utility is way better. Folks be acting like other classes don't have mobility. The only caster who isn't mobile is BLM.

Even black mage is pretty mobile compared to healers. BLM being a turret hasn't been a thing for a loooong time. At least, not compared to ARR and so on.

[Gruntler]

Never said less mobility. If I recall I said same as rdm. Only difference is RDM utility is way better. Folks be acting like other classes don't have mobility. The only caster who isn't mobile is BLM.

SMN is literally 3 casts per minute less mobile than the ranged. You didn't say it, I did. What you said was that something with considerably more than three casts per minute is somehow equally as mobile as something with only 3 casts per minute. This, of course, is objectively wrong.

BLM (and to a lesser extent RDM) need to plan their tools around the fight so they have access to their mobility as they need. And, in the cast of RDM, you need to make sure your opener is tight and GCD timing is in synch with the fight if you don't want to have your ogcds drift because you used swiftcast to move and made everything come up midcast.

Summoner needs to... just not use those moments to cast the one slipstream, the one hardcast ruby rite, or the one ruin 3 they need to cast in their rotation.

SMN mobility is literally handed to you on a silver platter and you pretty much have to work NOT to have access to it.

The fact that you DIDN'T say that it has only slightly less mobility than a ranged thing is the problem.

[ty_taurus]

On the topic of the casting situation, I feel like it wouldn't be uncalled for if Garuda's stance were converted into cast times. As it stands, each summon phase has a clear identity:

- Ifrit is long casts with high damage
- Titan is instant cast and mobile
- Garuda is a short GCD timer

I don't really feel like Garuda needs to be instant cast in order for her value to shine, and it would give Titan's mobility a more clear advantage at all levels. As it stands, Titan is just slower Garuda prior to obtaining their astral flows at level 86.