Echo and Blessing of light, post endwalker retcon

[EaraGrace]

Forgive me if I missed this point being addressed, but isn’t the issue of Fordola, Arenvald and others gaining the Blessing of Light solved by the encounter with Elidibus in the Crystarium where he explains that Hydaelyn is offering the Blessing to any and all who can hear Her? Up until Endwalker, having one would almost certainly beget the other. As Urianger said

One might surmise that Her call never ceaseth, such that all who awaken their innate gift might receive of the blessing of Light at the selfsame instant.

[Theozilla]

Paragons of the Source is just what Gaius referred to the Unsundered trio, before characters knew what Unsundered even meant/was, Gaius knew those trios were the head honchos. I don’t think that was ever meant to be interpreted as claiming no other (sundered) Ascians originated from a soul native to the Source.

As for the teleportation thing this what I said in the older thread when it was brought up

IIRC our Blessing of Light was somehow just giving protection to people from getting kidnapped in the Rising Stones itself as a safe haven location, otherwise the Ascians could have just waited whenever the WoL wasn’t at the Rising Stones and nab Tupsimati and Minfilia then. So I don’t think the Blessing of Light ever had the power to protect us (or other individuals) from being teleported by Ascians in general.
And the WoL’s Blessing of Light was the only one capable of protecting the Rising Stones specifically because it was powered up to the max with six Crystals of Light, hence why Minfilia’s own Blessing of Light didn’t provide the Rising Stones with the same warding protection.

As for why the Ascians never tried to nab us before then, we’ll for ARR they probably didn’t view us as a worthy threat, and then after ARR Elidibus believed he could manipulate us to their benefit, so kidnapping us wouldn’t be an option on the table. And by the end of Heavensward, the WoL was probably too dangerous to try to kidnap/teleport us.
Fandaniel only did so because he had the element of surprise to get the jump on us, and while Anima’s roar was causing mass confusion, so it was enough discombobulation to nab us and then immediately use the soul extraction machine on us.

Forgive me if I missed this point being addressed, but isn’t the issue of Fordola, Arenvald and others gaining the Blessing of Light solved by the encounter with Elidibus in the Crystarium where he explains that Hydaelyn is offering the Blessing to any and all who can hear Her? Up until Endwalker, having one would almost certainly beget the other. As Urianger said

5.2 did clarify that Arenvald (and anyone else with a natural Echo) would also have the Blessing of Light (albeit a base version that hasn’t been empowered by any Crystal(s) of Light) that’s understood yes.

But there isn’t any reason to assume that someone like Fordola (and Zenos and Misija) who have artificial Echoes would have also been granted the Blessing of Light, as they never mentioned ever hearing Hydaelyn’s voice and they never technically “awoke” the Echo but had it artificial created/implanted into them.

So since individuals with an artificial Echo, but no Blessing of Light; have tempering protection, that indicates that the Echo also provides its own form of tempering protection in addition to, but separate, from the protection the Blessing of Light also provides.

[EaraGrace]

5.2 did clarify that Arenvald (and anyone else with a natural Echo) would also have the Blessing of Light (albeit a base version that hasn’t been empowered by any Crystal(s) of Light) that’s understood yes.

But there isn’t any reason to assume that someone like Fordola (and Zenos and Misija) who have artificial Echoes would have also been granted the Blessing of Light, as they never mentioned ever hearing Hydaelyn’s voice and they never technically “awoke” the Echo but had it artificial created/implanted into them.

So since individuals with an artificial Echo, but no Blessing of Light; have tempering protection, that indicates that the Echo also provides its own form of tempering protection in addition to, but separate, from the protection the Blessing of Light also provides.

Why wouldn’t they though? The only prerequisite is being able to perceive Hydaelyns call. If the Resonance is capable of giving one the same abilities as the echo, it stands to reason that it would also impart that particular capability as well. After all, it would be odd to me if you could have the ability to understood peoples intentions and see their memories but not hear Hydaelyn. That would make it an exception without justification no?

[ThorneDynasty]

I don't know, doing the soft-retcon did feel a bit messy to me. It's not even all of the blessing that's involved in primal immunity as the game describes it, but the traveler's ward which I guess is just kind of under the same umbrella of Hydaelyn brand. Or we were never supposed to consider any of the other Hydaelyn given powers as the blessing? The fact it's described as a charm Venat has to actively cast also makes it confusing that everyone with the echo has it, when it doesn't seem she directly contacts most of them. I guess her broadcast somehow carries it anyway? A bit fuzzy logic but sure.

Then when they described that the original summoning rituals didn't cause tempering the lore decision seems even more off. It finally cleared up the only argument against the echo based immunity, which was how did the ancients get tempered if it's just a shadow of what they had. Because apparently they didn't, Emet-Selch was just lying about being outright tempered, at most he would have felt a mild mental "tug" as the game puts it.

It just makes the whole thing feel needlessly jumbled when it would have now made perfect sense for it to be just the echo. I suspect it was changed solely so that Venat can clearly identify the type spell and blow our cover, because I don't see what else it added to the story.

[MikkoAkure]

I think where I was confused was that I attributed the blessing to owning at least one crystal. When Midgardormr takes it away from us, our crystals darken. And when people awaken to the echo, they just hear Hydaelyn’s recorded message and feel the need to adventure and fight bad guys. I’m going to have to rewatch that Crystarium scene again.

[Denishia]

Yep, ever since Zenos's reframing of the Echo as clashing of wills, the Echo's protection wasn't an automatic 'anti-Tempering Ward' but a very strong shield/buff that allowed a soul to resist a Primal, which was why I was fully expecting a scene with one of our allies with a weaker Echo than ours to face a super-strong Primal and get lightly tempered or take one blow too many. Hydaelyn's Blessing - and that we kept getting more and more Crystals of Light, thus buffing it- meant that she was pilling on as many shields onto the WoL because we were going to face the mother of all tankbusters in the UnSundered Ascians and Zodiark. Also makes scene in Shadowbringers why it was the Blessing of Light and not the Echo needed to stave off the Light Warden aether corruption.
As for Emet only having a tiny tug of Zodiark's tempering, well, that makes perfect sense to me. His character is all about self-justifications for morally vile sunk-cost fallacy actions powered by his feelings of loss and grief, so of course he'd tell himself 'oh I'm Tempered, super Tempered' to give his depression another reason to to stop himself from trying to move on or give up from that Ascian goal - and frankly, I'm still very suspicious of what Tempering Elidibus-the-primal might have done to his brethren, that the original primal Zodiark might not have placed much of an outside mental control on them (but as the scene with Venat proved, the fervent worship of Zodiark was the Amaurotines themselves unable to cope with the trauma of the Final Days and the loss of their total and capricious control of over life on the planet and having equated that control with paradise and purpose and thus the loss of it as unbearable- Zodiark didn't need to Temper to get zealotry). But Elidibus's role as a free-roaming Zodiark Heart Primal was to 'recook' Ascians to refocus them on the Restore Zodiark plan whenever they were straying.

[Theozilla]

Why wouldn’t they though? The only prerequisite is being able to perceive Hydaelyns call. If the Resonance is capable of giving one the same abilities as the echo, it stands to reason that it would also impart that particular capability as well. After all, it would be odd to me if you could have the ability to understood peoples intentions and see their memories but not hear Hydaelyn. That would make it an exception without justification no?

Because there has been nothing to indicate that artificial Echo-users also gained the Blessing of Light, as even other individuals like Krile and Arenvald, who don’t have Crystals of Light empowering their Blessings have still been mentioned as having it.
And the artificial-Echo isn’t awoken like the natural Echo is, so it stands to reason that artificial Echo-users never pick up on the broadcast Hydaelyn sends out (that grants Echo users the Blessing of Light once they hear Hydaelyn’s call).

The process of awakening the Echo naturally seems to be the key moment when Hydaelyn’s broadcast grant the individuals the Blessing of Light. And sundered Ascians like Igeyorhm, who we know also had the Echo, almost assuredly gained their Echo (presumably they gain it when they are “raised to their office”) without receiving Hydaelyn’s Blessing of Light, so I think that’s stands reason only the traditional Echo awakening process allows for Hydaelyn to grant people the Blessing of Light.

[EaraGrace]

Because there has been nothing to indicate that artificial Echo-users also gained the Blessing of Light, as even other individuals like Krile and Arenvald, who don’t have Crystals of Light empowering their Blessings have still been mentioned as having it.
And the artificial-Echo isn’t awoken like the natural Echo is, so it stands to reason that artificial Echo-users never pick up on the broadcast Hydaelyn sends out (that grants Echo users the Blessing of Light once they hear Hydaelyn’s call).

The process of awakening the Echo naturally seems to be the key moment when Hydaelyn’s broadcast grant the individuals the Blessing of Light. And sundered Ascians like Igeyorhm, who we know also had the Echo, almost assuredly gained their Echo (presumably they gain it when they are “raised to their office”) without receiving Hydaelyn’s Blessing of Light, so I think that’s stands reason only the traditional Echo awakening process allows for Hydaelyn to grant people the Blessing of Light.

If the resonance is capable of resembling the echo so closely as to grant a sundered like Zenos the same powers as an Unsundered, then I don’t see why it wouldn’t allow you to hear Hydaelyns call.

And I think you’re conflating having a crystal of light with having the blessing of light. The only people confirmed to possess a crystal are ourselves, and the WoD from my understanding. There’s nothing that says they are one and the same and given the fact we still remained immune to primal influence after being stripped of the crystals in Heavensward, I’d say separating the two is necessary.

[Theozilla]

If the resonance is capable of resembling the echo so closely as to grant a sundered like Zenos the same powers as an Unsundered, then I don’t see why it wouldn’t allow you to hear Hydaelyns call.

And I think you’re conflating having a crystal of light with having the blessing of light. The only people confirmed to possess a crystal are ourselves, and the WoD from my understanding. There’s nothing that says they are one and the same and given the fact we still remained immune to primal influence after being stripped of the crystals in Heavensward, I’d say separating the two is necessary.

I think you may have partially misunderstood/misread what I was saying, I agree that having a Crystal of Light isn't a requirement for having the Blessing of Light, I literally have said multiple times that the Crystals of Light just power up the Blessing of Light (Besides the WoL and Ardbert and his companions, Ysayle also had a Crystal of Light, and Matoya possesses one that was created/generated from a much older Astral Era). I was specifically referencing characters, like Krile and Arenvald, who *don't* have Crystals of Light but do explicitly have the Blessing of Light, in comparison.

As the for the artificial-Echo/Resonance being powerful enough to allow Zenos to have abilities on par with an Unsundered Ascian, that's not really relevant to my point. As the power of the Echo isn't what determines whether one has the ability to hear Hydaelyn's call/be granted the Blessing of Light, as the Ascians (unsundered and sundered) have the Echo and are extremely powerful in it, but they obviously don't have the Blessing of Light.

That to me infers that it's the method/process of awakening the Echo, is a key factor as to whether one hears Hydaelyn's perpetual call and receives the Blessing of Light. And I do not think the process of receiving the artificial-Echo/Resonance gives users the Blessing of Light as well, similar to sundered Ascians who awaken to their Echo.

[Rannie]

Hmm I guess Krile herself didn't know what she was talking about when she said in the Eye of the Beholder, that whenever someone awakened to the Echo, Hydaelyn would give them a Crystal of Light... especially weird considering that was her field of study the Echo and hydaelyn...