Echo and Blessing of light, post endwalker retcon

[Anonymoose]

I was under the impression the the “Blessing” was only something the WoL had so I’m confused where that leaves Krile, Fordola, Zenos, Misija, Arenvald, Ysayle, Unukulhai, and Mikoto, who all have been shown to be immune to tempering.

Originally, I thought the same, but the blessing of Light is directly credited for the divine intervention projected through Krile's crystal when she survives Val, so I had to adjust, lol. The thing that belongs only to the Warrior of Light (THE Warrior of Light, not A Warrior of Light) is what I call the "champion factor". Hydaelyn's one chosen champion who Midgardsormr is sworn to aid. It looks like other people receive the effects of the blessing of Light at times.

I think it creates small pocket of problems during HW's ravana's arc, but since we started regaining the blessing and we had 1/6 I think they'll just say that the ward was at a fraction of it's power. There might else that I'm missing but I'm not remembering atm

In terms of where their heads were at at the time, yeah I think that does create a bit of a SEEMING contradiction.

I think I can work around it, though.

Midgardsormr darkened the crystals of Light and prevented the Warrior of Light from receiving the divine intervention that cost Hydaelyn so dearly. Midgardsormr claimed we were draining Her dry to pretend to be a hero, and didn't admit his mistake until much later. Nobody cared if we fought primals because we still had the Echo, which they thought was what protected us. But it looks like even though we couldn't receive Hydaelyn's aid, we simply didn't lose the Traveler's Ward.

[MikkoAkure]

Originally, I thought the same, but the blessing of Light is directly credited for the divine intervention projected through Krile's crystal when she survives Val, so I had to adjust, lol. The thing that belongs only to the Warrior of Light (THE Warrior of Light, not A Warrior of Light) is what I call the "champion factor". Hydaelyn's one chosen champion who Midgardsormr is sworn to aid. It looks like other people receive the effects of the blessing of Light at times.

That would explain Krile, and could explain Misija, Zenos, and Fordola if we decided to stretch it, but I don't remember seeing Arenvald and the others with any crystals. Mikoto, Unukulhai, and Arenvald all are present at summonings and immune to thralldom. And Ysayle is able to control Shiva through the Echo, not the Blessing. Zenos attributes the immunity to tempering to the Echo and says that it's stronger than that and goes into being able to control as well. He could obviously be wrong, but what is even the point of that exposition if they're going to reverse it later on?

The whole thing just doesn't make sense to me why they changed it for Endwalker because in the end, there's nothing specific about the protection being attributed to the Blessing that changes the story following the change except that 1 line of exposition when Venat says that it's a "traveler's ward". To open up so many retroactive plot holes for one throwaway line is baffling. When I was playing through the MSQ I just got the impression that the writers themselves weren't paying attention and forgot what was attributed to the Echo and what was the Blessing and oopsed it.

[Xenon_S]

My 2 cents

Echo is the power to transcend the boundary of souls, a power native to the ancients and can be awakened by sundered souls given suitable trigger, or copy pasted via the resonant.
Seeing memories, ascian prime fusions, language translation, aoe marker perception all falls under this umbrella.
The echo does not innately negate tempering, but as Zenos explained in 4.0, having the echo/resonant allows the wielder to engage in a "contest of wills" with a primal entity.
For most of the eorzeans/scions, they don't have the preconception (or strength) to counter-temper a primal, so this aspect of the echo manifests as simply temper resistance.
The sahagin priest given echo back in 2.3 (?) was still consumed by leviathan, a possible data point where being "weak willed" with the echo does not prevent tempering.

The Blessing of light is hydaelyn's traveller's ward, only given to select few, probably only WoL and Minfillia has it.
It prevents the corruption of aether, this is in dominant display against the lightwardens in 5.0.
In the hades fight, when the WoL unleashes the light after the active time maneouver, hades specifically mentions "damn her wretched blessing"
In WoL's case, having both the ward and echo is essentially double protection against tempering.

[JeanneOrnitier]

I was under the impression everyone with a Crystal of Light has the blessing/Venat's ward. Because she's said to give those to her chosen, and when Midgardsormr removed our blessing the crystals disappeared from the blue circle thing. So the player, Ysayle, Ardbert and his party, probably one or two others I'm missing.

The one issue I see with this whole "blessing not echo protects from tempering" thing is how Fordola was immune to primals, which was a plot point in SB and ShB patches. So unless Hydaelyn gave the blessing to her after she became Resonant (which is entirely possible but was never stated), it's an odd plothole I hope they address some day.

[Vyrerus]

I was under the assumption that the characters in XIV do not distinguish between the Echo and Blessing of Light, believing them to be the same thing (Since they make commentary that suggests as such many times throughout the MSQ since ARR at least)).

I just took it in stride, and figured that both the Echo and Venat's Ward can protect from Tempering.

Later when they revealed that the Ascians invented Tempering I made the logical leap that the Echo prevents it because it's designed to not impact Ancient Etheirysian souls because that would cost them potential Convocation additions.

/shrug

[Theozilla]

I actually started a thread last week on this very subject.
This is what my two-cents/understanding was.

So Endwalker gave us further revelations on the nature of the Blessing of Light (and a little bit on the Echo), and I am pretty sure I understood everything, but I also want to ask for clarification on a few things.

So, the Blessing of Light is revealed to be an extension/evolution of Venat's own original Magick that protects individuals from aetheric corruption (i.e. tempering), and as Elidibus and Urianger surmise in 5.2, Hydaelyn/(Venat) grants anyone who naturally awakens to the Echo (who isn't an Ascian) the Blessing of Light. And therefore, the Blessing of Light is not Hydaelyn tempering people.

Additionally the Blessing of Light can also empower people further, especially if they have/generated a Crystal of Light (in the WoL's case we have 6 Crystals of Light), but having a Crystal of Light is not a requirement for having the Blessing of Light itself (as per previously mentioned in the 5.2 musings and Krile herself already stated in 3.1 that she has the Blessing of Light).

And presumably even after Hydaelyn/(Venat) has died, her Blessing of Light Magick still remains on the people who have it, it presumably is not a Magick that fades after the casters death. However, also presumably, since Hydaelyn/(Venat) is now dead no one else in the future can receive the Blessing of Light anymore (at least not the Magick Venat created), even if future people are born with/awaken to the Echo.


Also, if I have understood correctly, the Echo itself also well protects people from being tempered by Primals/aetheric corruption, as evidenced by the WoL still having tempering protection/immunity after Midgardsormr temporarily stripped us of the Blessing of Light right before Heavensward, and the fact that people with an artificial Echo (Zenos, Fordola, and Misija), but who don't have a Blessing of Light, are also still protected/immune to tempering.

However, the protection from tempering that the Echo provides isn't as absolute/strong as the tempering protection that the Blessing of Light can provide, as evidenced by the fact that Emet-Selch stated that Zodiark tempered the Convocation after his summoning, despite the fact the Ancients would have also been in possession of the Echo (and presumably would have been even more powerful in its mastery than a sundered soul individual with the Echo can have). So, if we are to believe Zenos' theory in Stormblood in regards to how the Echo works, the Echo only gives protection from tempering/aetheric corruption in the sense that it allows people with the Echo to have a greater "will" than Primals, and therefore "dominate" the Primals instead of being dominated by them, effectively being protected from tempering. But presumably a super powerful Primal like Zodiark (as stated by Emet-Selch) is strong enough to overcome the protection the Echo can provide against tempering/aetheric corruption.

So does my summation of the Echo and Blessing of Light sound about right/is accurate?

Basically I understand it that both the Echo and Blessing of Light provide protection from tempering but in different ways, with Venat’s magick being more absolute than the Echo (which the way Zenos frames it, the Echo’s protection is based on the strength of will/power to dominate).

And I don’t see any reason to assume artificial Echo users like Zenos, Fordola, and Misija, somehow received the Blessing of Light as well. Therefore I think it makes more sense to interpret it a both the Echo and Blessing of Light provide tempering protection, but in the aforementioned different manners.

[Remedi]

I don't get why ppl are getting so much hung on Zenos, Fordola and Misija, we practically did the same thing with the talismans, they literally copied the aetherial ward, much the same way the resonator copied the echo powers

[RyuDragnier]

I see it as both.

Out-of-world, yeah, it's pretty clear the writing team changed their minds and edited some things.

In-world, they were able to deliver those changes as, "The Scions studied a phenomenon, made conclusions, got more data, and it turns out they didn't have it quite right." while not removing material or creating lasting contradictions.

Because of the former, some will argue it's a "retcon".
Because of the latter, some will argue that it's not.

I argue: If we split retroactive continuity into subtractive and additive, we honor that both sides have a point, lol.

Additive retcons pay a "we made it follow internal logic" tax for editing the lore. It's skilled writing during a long story.

I would say that technically it's a retcon in both out-of-world and in-world, but retcons aren't necessarily bad. TVTropes has multiple examples of retcons, several bad, several good.

Backported Development: When someone's characterization in flashbacks is tweaked to more closely resemble their current self; a retcon to address Characterization Marches On.
Canon Discontinuity: Previous events are treated as if they never happened.
Cerebus Retcon: Sometimes a result of Cerebus Syndrome that makes a past event more serious as part of a shift to drama.
Chuck Cunningham Syndrome: A character disappeared from the narrative without explanation.
Revision: A continuity alteration that doesn't directly contradict any previous material.
Rewrite: A retcon that openly overwrites the facts of the previous continuity.
Orwellian Retcon: The prior events that contradict the new continuity get rewritten.
Cosmic Retcon: An in-story event alters reality, which causes a retcon.
Retconjuration: An in-story ability to alter reality, which causes a retcon.
Remember the New Guy?: A new character is introduced, but is retconned to have been part of the story all along.

While some may see them as more Rewrite Retcons (I can understand why), I don't personally see it as the case, since a lot of information we were given we knew nothing about. IMO, EW has been giving out a lot of Revision Retcons, as the changes have not directly contradicted anything prior, and have only given us new information explaining and clarifying things we didn't have all the knowledge on.

[Lihtleita]

the echo is like something all ancients had supposedly
yet the unsundered were still very much tempered

[Theozilla]

I don't get why ppl are getting so much hung on Zenos, Fordola and Misija, we practically did the same thing with the talismans, they literally copied the aetherial ward, much the same way the resonator copied the echo powers

The talismans did not copy the Blessing of Light in the same way that the artificial-Echo users literally needed a natural Echo-user to copy/create for the artificial-Echo user.
The alchemists’ talismans are more like the Garlean radios, replicating a desired effect, not literal copying/transferring.

And there’s no reason to assume that the creation of the artificial Echo, also copies the Blessing of Light in the process, especially when the Blessing of Light has been shown to other properties in addition to the tempering protection (like the shielding from Ultima and/or general power boost it can provide be amplified by Crystals of Light).
And the WoL still had the Echo and tempering protection when Midgardsormr had suppressed the WoL’s Blessing of Light during Heavensward.

And the “power to dominate” spiel Zenos gives in Stormblood is indicative of how the Echo and Blessing of Light’s tempering protection differ in fiction as well.

the echo is like something all ancients had supposedly
yet the unsundered were still very much tempered

As stated previously, that likely has to with the Echo’s protection being derived from the “strength of will/power to dominate” quality that the Echo protection involves. Thus a Primal like Zodiark could feasibly overcome such a barrier due to its strength of will far surpassing any average primal.