The Bizarre Lack of Development and Pathos Concerning Zenos [6.0 Spoilers]

[Vyrerus]

It's somewhat funny. Zenos actually already is a sympathetic character if you can relate to him on a personal, rather than in-universe character based level. I mean, sympathy and empathy aren't just actions that we take. They're acted upon feelings, and feelings are thoroughly subjective.

I related to Zenos right away in Stormblood. Instantly saw him for being bored to the point of depression. I was actually coming to end of a 6 year bout with depression myself at the time(though it was actually a duo playthrough of Scholar of the First Sin with my good friend later in the year that finally put that segment of my life to rest). I didn't like him yet, but he grew on me because of that(And I mean I was screaming bloody murder and bullshit my first time through each time he beat us). I'm not the best raider in the world, but without fresh, hard fights in the game I get very bored and start to dislike the game.

What they did with him post 4.0 was essentially had him go on his own personal journey for his own motivation. I found myself thinking after I'd defeated him and watched my brother also defeat him, "Did they really just basically write, "The Villain's Journey?" Sort of a parallel to the Hero's Journey, but rather than the call to adventure, it's the, "Call to The Adventurer."

They didn't give us a lot of desired dialogue options for many portions of Endwalker, and regardless of what dialogue option you pick at the end with him, fighting him is still giving him what he desired. That is the best kind of thanks for him, as your words mean far less.

I really enjoyed that they went full Meta with him. He likely could have killed the Scions when he stole our body, but he gingerly walked towards Camp Broken Glass because it was a provocation to try to arouse us to anger to fight him. He proved by his dialogue later when he killed that single Blasphemy that he was already beyond Despair. But then he took what Alisaie said into consideration, showing that he doesn't have all of the answers.

I also think that some people misunderstand what he contributed to the Endwalker Final Day fight. He wasn't just the platform. He allowed us to continue to keep bringing the fight to her. Maybe we could have made a place to stand by manipulating Dynamis, but we needed our all to slay the Endsinger and our Azem Stone party also needed their all to do that as well. For the entire fight, the Endsinger is simultaneously trying to kill us while trying to also get away. Zenos even makes commentary on it, "There's nowhere you can run that we won't catch you."



Basically, what the point I'm trying to make is that Zenos is a character where the pathos comes from us reading him rather than from him directly. For the other characters it is obvious, because they want it to be, but for Zenos they leave us to feel freely about him. Note that he is also the villain who our comrades speak about the least. No one ever really makes an attempt to color or re-color our perception of him.

[vormela]

Basically, what the point I'm trying to make is that Zenos is a character where the pathos comes from us reading him rather than from him directly. For the other characters it is obvious, because they want it to be, but for Zenos they leave us to feel freely about him.

Yes. His purpose is for something more than surficial villain. There are more pathologies tied up in the dinner scene and fallout than in the entire rest of the game except for Venat asking us if our existence was good. It will take time to figure out, but I am going to give him that time.

[Elysidelphi]

Yes. His purpose is for something more than surficial villain. There are more pathologies tied up in the dinner scene and fallout than in the entire rest of the game except for Venat asking us if our existence was good. It will take time to figure out, but I am going to give him that time.

Good points again.

Someone I was talking to recently pointed out that on the poster for Endwalker, the Scions, Zenos and Venat are arranged/shaped in the form of The Tree of Life or Sefirot. And each character on there represents a different emanation related to The Tree of Life. Zenos would represent Gevurah which means strength and severity; the WoL would represent Chesed which means kindness and mercy; Alisaie who is located between Zenos and the WoL on the poster would represent Tiferet which means harmony and knowledge. So symbolically this would mean that Alisaie would maintain/encourage/create harmony between Zenos and the WoL. And she kind of does with her speech to Zenos which makes him self-reflect.

To quote her:

"Tifaret - Knowledge and Compassion/Beauty finding balance. Literally pretty self explanatory. The balance of conflicting forces Funny that it was Alisiae that got through to Zenos."

"Chesed - Mercy/Compassion - The Warrior of Light. This pretty much sums up Azem's ability to make connections, to repair the world via our connections and why we are saved. those who 'go above and beyond what is normally aquired". The first to attribute action the initiation of action. Very Azem."

"Gevurah - Severity and Strength - The mirror of Chesed's compassion and love. Corresponds to crimson and the element of Fire and burning Absolute adherance to the burning of all ("Burn, burn let it all burn") Overcoming of enemies, without or within"

"Chesed and Gevurah Must act together to create a balance to the soul's approach on the outside world. One cannot live without the other it must be both or it cannot be either."

And if you have any doubts about the FFXIV writing team not knowing about such concepts, all you have to do is look at the last MSQ dungeon which does have The Tree of Life during the final boss in that dungeon. Or you can look at Gridania and its connection to nature, particularly trees.

[Vuro]

Vuro, what an excellent post! Thank you so much for taking the time and putting in the effort to write all of that. Thank you also for your compassion and understanding for Zenos. It's quite rare to see it, especially publicly.

Thank you so much for your kind words! <3 I’d love a link to that discord!

How are we cold to Zenos at the end?

I’m referring to the moments before Zenos calls to us, where we’re 100% ready to follow Meteion out of Absolute Horizon without giving Zenos a second thought.

Basically, what the point I'm trying to make is that Zenos is a character where the pathos comes from us reading him rather than from him directly. For the other characters it is obvious, because they want it to be, but for Zenos they leave us to feel freely about him. Note that he is also the villain who our comrades speak about the least. No one ever really makes an attempt to color or re-color our perception of him.

This is a really rad interpretation, so thank you for putting it into words! Although I’m still frustrated by the lack of more obvious pathos for players who struggle with reading between the lines, I really hope your analysis is closer to what the writers’ actual intent was, since their approach to Zenos would make more sense in that case.

It wasn't a direct reply to your post. I didn't quote you specifically dummy

Dude, you replied to my thread without quoting anyone else, meaning you replied to the thread’s first post - my post. Sorry if you’re only just finding out how forums work.

[Elysidelphi]

Thank you so much for your kind words! <3 I’d love a link to that discord!

Here you go:

https://discord.gg/SxGnhMJR


Hope the link works for you!

[marrrow]

Because every other antagonist saw themselves as the central good guy in a story full of purpose and meaning, so a scene where we fully see them as they see themselves - realizing why they were our villain and why they lost to us - is satisfying.

Zenos doesn't. He has no use for that moment. He doesn't care.

What meaning there is to be found in the petty vicissitudes of his existence must be gleaned by us and us alone.

I think that's a lovely way to interpret the narrative we've been given, but I don't think it was either the intention or the most effective approach to telling his story. Leaving pretty much all of the responsibility for interpreting & understanding a given character with the player--especially when other characters are readily explained--does not give anyone who wasn't immediately invested in the character reason to become so

FF14 may have a very sophisticated narrative & it may leave a lot up to our interpretation, but it is still ultimately quite accessible; the failure to give players any significant opportunities to empathize with Zenos & understand where he's coming from is to its detriment. Likewise, as OP said, it feels incongruous with the story's overally themes of empathy & compassion, even for people like Yotsuyu or Hermes or Amon; why is Zenos outside of this?

[Kesey]

Zenos should have stayed dead after his suicide in 4.0's ending. Since that scene he has done nothing to move the plot forward.

His character hasn't changed or developed either. Seriously, his big moment of significant change was the realization that the WOL won't fight him until this other threat has gone away. That's childish logic, not character development.

Post-Stormblood keep everything the same. Just delete scenes where Zenos is in another corpse.

Shadowbringers, Gaius should have killed Varis for knowningly courting Ascians. Estinien should have driven Elidibus from Zenos' corpse. The civil war still happens. Fandaniel takes Varis' body and the plot continues (remember they can make clones!).

Endwalker happens without Zenos entirely and we'd be none the wiser. Such an easy fix that you can't even love him into justification.

Not to mention all the lost plot threads, like the dreaming of Amaurot (So Ancient Zenos wasn't friends with Azem?), how does surviving death change you (because in this case it did nothing), and he just rolls with Fandaniel using him as a tool proving he has no self-worth (so why even fight the WOL at all if the Ascian is going to make you a puppet?)?

Zenos is a blemish on what was otherwise a well told story and expansion.

[HyoMinPark]

I think that's a lovely way to interpret the narrative we've been given, but I don't think it was either the intention or the most effective approach to telling his story. Leaving pretty much all of the responsibility for interpreting & understanding a given character with the player--especially when other characters are readily explained--does not give anyone who wasn't immediately invested in the character reason to become so

FF14 may have a very sophisticated narrative & it may leave a lot up to our interpretation, but it is still ultimately quite accessible; the failure to give players any significant opportunities to empathize with Zenos & understand where he's coming from is to its detriment. Likewise, as OP said, it feels incongruous with the story's overally themes of empathy & compassion, even for people like Yotsuyu or Hermes or Amon; why is Zenos outside of this?

On the bolded part: we don’t necessarily have to empathize, sympathize, or feel compassion for each and every villain we encounter. And there are those within the story that we don’t have these emotions for; some play a bigger part than others, but you could say the same about those we do share an emotional connection to.

Our character is never really seen feeling any sort of emotion for the other Ascians outside of Emet and Elidibus: Lahabrea, Igeyorhm, Nabriales. They’re seen more as obstacles to our goals, we overcome them, and they fade into finished chapters of our story. Some weren’t as major to the story compared to the former two, yes—Igeyorhm and Nabriales, for example, didn’t have a lot of screen time or development, and Lahabrea’s development in ARR and HW was quite poor, to be honest; however, Elidibus was only really a major player in a handful of expansion patches, and 5.3 was a major turning point for his character after years of kind of being in the background as an emissary. Now whether this was a product of ARR storytelling in the case of Nabriales or missed opportunity for Igeyorhm, I cannot say. But we didn’t really follow the themes of the story with either of them. Lahabrea is, obviously, subject to change given Pandaemonium’s on-going story.

Though it’s been a while since I’ve been through HW, I don’t recall us ever really feeling compassion for Nidhogg, though this could be up for debate. I personally don’t recall any moments akin to what we had with Yotsuyu, Hermès/Fandaniel/Amon, Emet-Selch, Elidibus, or Meteion with him; he always struck me as just a villain driven by a singular emotion and goal; not one that was inherently complex, or meant to garner any sort of emotional sympathy or compassion from us, the player. Same for Thordan. For Stormblood, I don’t think there was any question that Asahi is a person not meant to garner sympathy or compassion or understanding of any kind—I think he was purposely written to be that guy with the punchable face that you just want to sock in the jaw every time he opens his mouth. Again, you can argue that he wasn’t a “major” antagonist; but still.

I think there exist characters not meant to be empathized/sympathized with, or feel compassion for should the player choose not to. And that’s perfectly okay. Just like it’s okay to not have redeemable characters in a story. Not every villain needs to be tragic or sympathetic or an anti-villain. That would be boring.



Zenos is a very divisive character—and has been since 4.0. I think it’s probably a wise decision to leave it up to the players to decide on their emotional catharsis/pathos for him rather than trying to force it.

Even though he spends relatively little time on-screen in SB, everything that we do is to fulfill his ends; we spend more time dealing with Yotsuyu & Fordola because the entire point of the expansion is that we have nothing to offer him until after we've grown strong enough to overcome all of the obstacles he sets in our path. After all, what are Yotsuyu & Fordola doing but carrying out his will?

As for post-SB--in post-SHB, as OP said, we spent a lot of time emphasizing how important he was going to be in EW; in the promotional materials for EW, he was also heavily emphasized, suggesting that he would be important; he is also present at the lvl 90 trial, & the absolute final fight of the expac is with him. I think this is enough to say that he is--or was meant to be--a significant antagonist. Why he ended up not fulfilling that role is impossible to know, but that doesn't invalidate OP's question about why he wasn't offered the same compassion & empathy that other antagonists receive

I answered before this had been posted, but I’ll reiterate: with him being such a divisive character, I think it was wise of the writers to leave it up to the player to form their own emotional connection (or lack there of) with him. Forcing it would have been in bad taste, in my opinion. I don’t think that would have made for great writing when the reaction to him since his introduction—and subsequent resurrection—has been so divided.

[Anonymoose]

Leaving pretty much all of the responsibility for interpreting & understanding a given character with the player--especially when other characters are readily explained--does not give anyone who wasn't immediately invested in the character reason to become so

My brain pretty much considers him the optional DLC mega-boss of FFXIV so tbh yeah it's fair to say I'm not invested in him, lol. But he didn't do any of the things I was afraid he would do to damage Endwalker's messages, and he did technically meet his own goals without ruining mine, so I'm willing to sit here and be like "<blowing into bubble pipe> Would Zenos care if I understood or invested in him? I submit that he would not."