Endwalker AST has too many buttons, and other issues

[HyoMinPark]

Earthly Star works because the detonation timer is shorter than the cooldown of the skill. As you said, the star will explode after 20 seconds, regardless of what you do, and the cooldown of the skill will be at 40s at that point. This wouldn't work with Minor Arcana because cards don't have a timer. You could draw a card and hold it for the whole fight. With MA and CP merged, you would draw a card and be unable to see how much is left on the cooldown because nothing would force you to use the card in the span of 60s. This would be easily fixable by giving cards a timer (something like 50s), but that was my point: simply merging the two buttons would be problematic without an additional fix/change.

This isn’t a really good defense. Just because the cards no longer have timers doesn’t mean that they can’t still make Minor Arcana (and Draw) function the same way Earthly Star does with regards to resetting its countdown. Just because you can hold a card indefinitely now (theoretically) doesn’t mean that this isn’t possible. I agree with the above post: if you’re holding on to that Lady of Crowns or Ewer the entire fight, then you deserve to lose those casts and have that cooldown drift.

But it can be done. The developers have proven you can program skills this way. And I seriously hope that they consider this in the future. I’m sure they could add onto the job gauge the cooldown/charge timer in some way for those who would like to track it, or may be trying to strategically hold a card for a burst window or something. There’s just no need for Play and Crown Play to exist. And the same can be said for Undraw, to be honest. Even if, during my Astrodyne seal gathering, I want to Undraw out of frustration when Clarifying Draw gives me THE SAME SEAL WHEN I USE IT. (Honestly, that should be hotfixed or something—would be a nice QoL to program Redraw to give you at least a different seal than the one you had Drawn before…)

[Knoahl]

I personally would love the damage buffs of the cards moved to divination and for more utility based buffs to be placed on the cards with the old system (some ideas could be: movement speed, haste, CD reduction, damage reduction, MP regen). I love how astro heals now, the card system is the main thing which I miss.

That aside I still enjoy the card system I just want the buttons consolidated because, why take 2 steps back

[Anhra]

The amount of Buttons isnt a issue even on a ps4 controller, be it AST or any other Job. If anything, its Healers as a whole which are flawed by design, because they become more and more unnecessary with every coming expansion since Stormblood.

[rewd]

i think yourse seriously underestimating the devs' programming skills. what do you say of technical step? its cooldown begins when you start using the skill, not when you fire off the attack

if the "problem" is someone never playing a card then honestly they deserve having that cooldown drift.

What do I say of Technical Step? Literally what I said in my previous comment that you quoted...

The skill has a 120s cooldown, the buff lasts for 20s. Works the same way as Earthly Star.

This isn’t a really good defense. Just because the cards no longer have timers doesn’t mean that they can’t still make Minor Arcana (and Draw) function the same way Earthly Star does with regards to resetting its countdown. Just because you can hold a card indefinitely now (theoretically) doesn’t mean that this isn’t possible. I agree with the above post: if you’re holding on to that Lady of Crowns or Ewer the entire fight, then you deserve to lose those casts and have that cooldown drift.

It's an objectively good defense because merging the buttons without adjusting how the system works would be problematic. I would say that your rebuttal is pretty bad, as you (and the other user) are pretty much attacking a hyperbole instead of attacking the point.

In this iteration, there is a reason for having two buttons. There's no need for two buttons because you can make easy adjustments such as giving cards a timer (this is how Earthly Star works), add a timer to the job gauge or other things. Simply merging the two buttons and calling it a day wouldn't do it. You could hold a card for 56 centuries, for 61 seconds, it doesn't matter. Don't use hyperboles and extremes as your rebuttals. You are proverbially looking at my finger when I'm pointing at the moon.

[RinaShinomiya]

What do I say of Technical Step? Literally what I said in my previous comment that you quoted...

The skill has a 120s cooldown, the buff lasts for 20s. Works the same way as Earthly Star.


It's an objectively good defense because merging the buttons without adjusting how the system works would be problematic. I would say that your rebuttal is pretty bad, as you (and the other user) are pretty much attacking a hyperbole instead of attacking the point.

In this iteration, there is a reason for having two buttons. There's no need for two buttons because you can make easy adjustments such as giving cards a timer (this is how Earthly Star works), add a timer to the job gauge or other things. Simply merging the two buttons and calling it a day wouldn't do it. You could hold a card for 56 centuries, for 61 seconds, it doesn't matter. Don't use hyperboles and extremes as your rebuttals. You are proverbially looking at my finger when I'm pointing at the moon.

So your defense is they are separate buttons because the programmers didn't bother making the card system good, and not because there is a gameplay advantage of it being like it is right now.
Which cycles us back to the buttons needing to be consolidated. Just because we don't say cards need timers when asking for it doesn't mean that it's impossible to implement. It's not our job to think of how things are gonna work on a technical level when asking for improvements, we don't work at Business Division 3, we just play their game.

[rewd]

This isn’t a really good defense. Just because the cards no longer have timers doesn’t mean that they can’t still make Minor Arcana (and Draw) function the same way Earthly Star does with regards to resetting its countdown. Just because you can hold a card indefinitely now (theoretically) doesn’t mean that this isn’t possible. I agree with the above post: if you’re holding on to that Lady of Crowns or Ewer the entire fight, then you deserve to lose those casts and have that cooldown drift.

But it can be done. The developers have proven you can program skills this way. And I seriously hope that they consider this in the future. I’m sure they could add onto the job gauge the cooldown/charge timer in some way for those who would like to track it, or may be trying to strategically hold a card for a burst window or something. There’s just no need for Play and Crown Play to exist. And the same can be said for Undraw, to be honest. Even if, during my Astrodyne seal gathering, I want to Undraw out of frustration when Clarifying Draw gives me THE SAME SEAL WHEN I USE IT. (Honestly, that should be hotfixed or something—would be a nice QoL to program Redraw to give you at least a different seal than the one you had Drawn before…)

So your defense is they are separate buttons because the programmers didn't bother making the card system good, and not because there is a gameplay advantage of it being like it is right now.
Which cycles us back to the buttons needing to be consolidated. Just because we don't say cards need timers when asking for it doesn't mean that it's impossible to implement. It's not our job to think of how things are gonna work on a technical level when asking for improvements, we don't work at Business Division 3, we just play their game.

First of all I wouldn't even call it "defense" (I just used the term someone used replying to me), it's an explanation. I'm also agreeing that the buttons can and should be consolidated (as I've already expressed in more than one comment...), so I'm not your enemy.

[HyoMinPark]

It's an objectively good defense because merging the buttons without adjusting how the system works would be problematic. I would say that your rebuttal is pretty bad, as you (and the other user) are pretty much attacking a hyperbole instead of attacking the point.

In this iteration, there is a reason for having two buttons. There's no need for two buttons because you can make easy adjustments such as giving cards a timer (this is how Earthly Star works), add a timer to the job gauge or other things. Simply merging the two buttons and calling it a day wouldn't do it. You could hold a card for 56 centuries, for 61 seconds, it doesn't matter. Don't use hyperboles and extremes as your rebuttals. You are proverbially looking at my finger when I'm pointing at the moon.

I don’t think you know what hyperbole means if you’re calling my posts to you hyperbolic. You seem to be fixating on the “you can hold a card for the entire fight” when myself and QooEr are only responding to an example YOU brought up.

Earthly Star works because the detonation timer is shorter than the cooldown of the skill. As you said, the star will explode after 20 seconds, regardless of what you do, and the cooldown of the skill will be at 40s at that point. This wouldn't work with Minor Arcana because cards don't have a timer. You could draw a card and hold it for the whole fight. With MA and CP merged, you would draw a card and be unable to see how much is left on the cooldown because nothing would force you to use the card in the span of 60s. This would be easily fixable by giving cards a timer (something like 50s), but that was my point: simply merging the two buttons would be problematic without an additional fix/change.

That’s the only thing about my post I can even remotely think resembles hyperbole.



AST cards actually used to have a timer. You couldn’t hold them indefinitely. That is purely a ShB AST and onwards thing—which was when the card system became so divisive and when Play came into existence. Play itself was also a controversial addition in ShB; and it didn’t help that it had issues with delay in the beginning. Before, you could only hold them for 30 seconds; and there was honestly very little reason to remove said countdowns in the first place. With the way bursts now work in this game at static intervals of 60 seconds (barring those weird examples that directly contradicted the changes the devs wants to make in EW of lining buffs up to 60-second intervals), there is little reason to hold a card unless you are allowing Draw to drift or missing casts of it. Which is suboptimal play. Even those weird examples of 90 seconds (Astrodyne being one of them), cards would still line up as 90 is divisible by 30.

[rewd]

I don’t think you know what hyperbole means if you’re calling my posts to you hyperbolic. You seem to be fixating on the “you can hold a card for the entire fight” when myself and QooEr are only responding to an example YOU brought up.



AST cards actually used to have a timer. You couldn’t hold them indefinitely. That is purely a ShB AST and onwards thing—which was when the card system became so divisive and when Play came into existence. Play itself was also a controversial addition in ShB; and it didn’t help that it had issues with delay in the beginning. Before, you could only hold them for 30 seconds; and there was honestly very little reason to remove said countdowns in the first place. With the way bursts now work in this game at static intervals of 60 seconds (barring those weird examples that directly contradicted the changes the devs wants to make in EW of lining buffs up to 60-second intervals), there is little reason to hold a card unless you are allowing Draw to drift or missing casts of it. Which is suboptimal play. Even those weird examples of 90 seconds (Astrodyne being one of them), cards would still line up as 90 is divisible by 30.

The hyperbole is saying that you could potentially hold a card for the entire fight because cards have no timer. I'm saying you shouldn't base your rebuttal on this hyperbole (and not that your posts are hyperboles...) because then you are missing the point (hence looking at my finger and not the moon). Whether you drift the cooldown by one second or 500 seconds (going by extremes) doesn't matter, you still can drift and it feels bad. Lady and Lord are usually cards you don't use right away because you either have nothing to heal (Lady) or you are waiting for a scenario to maximize DPS, like an add phase (Lord). With everything going on in a fight (especially on AST), it's not out of the realm of possibility to hold a card for more than 60s waiting for the best opportunity to use it, especially if you can't physically see the cooldown of MA.

Minor Arcana and Crown Play being different buttons is justified with the current design but it is not necessary as you could simply introduce a very easy fix (timer on cards? cooldown shown on the arcana gauge?) and merge the buttons. This is different from DNC's case, for example, where there is no justification at all for Fan Dance IV and Starfall Dance being different buttons when they could simply change from Flourish and Devilment without any problem.

As for the edited part of your comment, it feels a bit out of place as I never mentioned Draw and Play but only MA. I guess the situation is a bit iffy there as Draw has 2 charges now.

[BahamutxD]

Minor Arcana and Crown Play being different buttons is justified with the current design but it is not necessary as you could simply introduce a very easy fix

GNB combo does this just fine. CD starts the moment your start the combo. No matter how long it takes you to finish the combo, CD will still run to the point it can be enabled again just when you finish the combo.