Endwalker's message (spoilers!)

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Once again, Hades and Hythlo took their duties of the star very seriously. Even if they didn’t fully believe us, they worked with us in the off chance we were right and there was a threat to the star. Knowing this, and then combining it with the fact they literally knew they were mind wiped, it wouldn’t take much to convince them of what happened and how to move forward. Again, i don’t understand this obsession with saying the Ancients didn’t know suffering. The short stories go over this and show they did indeed. Especially after the final days, they suffered, and their hope gave rise to Zodiark who at that point saved them and the world and bought them time in which had Venat been open to Hades and Hythlo, they perhaps could’ve come to a resolution. The fact is they were never given a chance. Meteion was the one who did everything anyhow. I mean look at the dragons. They literally did nothing wrong yet still got harassed because ???. She decided to play God, keep secrets and lie, create another problem and then shatter the world, all to what? Make people suffer? That’s abuse mentality right there, especially when she has the audacity to call them all her children, but then was going to leave all of the shards to die and only the source would evacuate should worst come to worst. Amazing Mother.

[FrogDog]

That’s abuse mentality right there, especially when she has the audacity to call them all her children, but then was going to leave all of the shards to die and only the source would evacuate should worst come to worst. Amazing Mother.

How DARE you criticize mommy Hydaelyn's parenting!

In all seriousness though this expansion's story felt like anime schlock to me and Hydaelyn's motives are very weak, I'll admit.

[Theodric]

I'm more inclined to suggest that if Venat wasn't a pretty woman who shed tears when she wiped out her people, very few people would sympathise with her. If the Sundered were able to find a way to defy their fate, then it stands to reason that the much more powerful and influential Unsundered could have done the same thing. It wasn't that Venat had some grand plan that meant she was actually the most intelligent person in the entire universe and knew some secret that numerous other Stars were unable to deduce. It's that she deliberately took away the ability of her own people to successfully fight against a threat and then claimed credit for something that she, herself, wasn't even responsible for.

Even after the Sundering, it was Zodiark who served as the ward against the Final Days. It was Zodiark who bought time against Meteion, not Hydaelyn. Furthermore, the Sundered would not have succeeded in any meaningful capacity if not for the numerous forms of aid provided by stronger beings, including the Unsundered, Midgardsomr and Hydaelyn's 'blessing'.

Ultimately, she didn't even try to approach the Convocation despite Emet-Selch making it perfectly clear that even in cases were he was sceptical about something, he had a duty to investigate for the sake of the Star. As a former member of the Convocation herself, Venat was also a highly respected figure within her society - so the idea that nobody would give her the time of day is strange, especially when a previous quest established her ability to show others memories imprinted upon the land...

As for the whole 'suffering is needed' angle, that doesn't make much sense either - because, again, numerous other Stars endured suffering to various degrees. Yet not a single person could rise up against Meteion until the Scions showed up? I don't buy it - since Venat simply contributed to denying many others the opportunity to do as much simply because she decided to embrace her delusions of grandeur and style herself as a goddess for reasons that weren't even explained.

[Yencat]

I'm more inclined to suggest that if Venat wasn't a pretty woman who shed tears when she wiped out her people, very few people would sympathise with her.

If the Ascians looked like Vauthry people wouldn't be nearly as sympathetic to them either, they struck fanboy/fangirl gold with with pretty much all the Ancients.

[KizuyaKatogami]

If the Ascians looked like Vauthry people wouldn't be nearly as sympathetic to them either, they struck fanboy/fangirl gold with with pretty much all the Ancients.

Tbf, most of them we dont even know what they look like behind their mask lol.

[Yencat]

Tbf, most of them we dont even know what they look like behind their mask lol.

Sure, but I'd be shocked if any of them looked like Vauthry lol

The pining for Emet started in Shb, and now the headcanon throuple-fantasies between Emet/Hythlodaeus/WoL(Azem) is off the charts.

[Theodric]

If the Ascians looked like Vauthry people wouldn't be nearly as sympathetic to them either, they struck fanboy/fangirl gold with with pretty much all the Ancients.

I doubt that, since a lot of people who have sympathised with the Ascians and Ancients did so due to their circumstances and story, rather than what they looked like. Certainly, in some cases the appearance is a bonus - though I noticed that there's far less sturdy ground for those defending Venat to stand upon by comparison, given her lack of a solidified goal and no real effort to explain her motives at length.

Incidentally, though, Vauthry ended up as far more sympathetic to me than Venat. I found him to be entertaining throughout Shadowbringers, much in the same way as Queen Brahne from FFIX. I guess it helps that he genuinely believed in his plans whereas Venat couldn't help but be vague and hypocritical right up until the very end.

[Lauront]

I doubt that, since a lot of people who have sympathised with the Ascians and Ancients did so due to their circumstances and story, rather than what they looked like. Certainly, in some cases the appearance is a bonus - though I noticed that there's far less sturdy ground for those defending Venat to stand upon by comparison, given her lack of a solidified goal and no real effort to explain her motives at length.

Incidentally, though, Vauthry ended up as far more sympathetic to me than Venat. I found him to be entertaining throughout Shadowbringers, much in the same way as Queen Brahne from FFIX. I guess it helps that he genuinely believed in his plans whereas Venat couldn't help but be vague and hypocritical right up until the very end.

It's nonsense, in any case. People have come to like the Ascians in spite of them having a rather rough reputation initially, through learning what they went through and who they truly were - for the longest time they were presented as villainous, particularly if you did not pay close attention to Elidibus as a character. Hydaelyn has been pushed on us as benevolent since the outset.

This. I still see people throw Zodiark under the bus even though he is literally the reason why the star exists today. Without Zodiark’s aether shield and restoring life there wouldn’t be anything left of the star. Yet Venat gets all the credit for some reason.

I'd re-read her post. She's not making that point. Quite the opposite. Though I agree.

[Rulakir]

If the Ascians looked like Vauthry people wouldn't be nearly as sympathetic to them either, they struck fanboy/fangirl gold with with pretty much all the Ancients.

Eh, debatable. The Ascians ultimately had a sympathetic backstory regardless of their appearance. I can't say the same for Venat.

Taking appearances out entirely, I tell you there's someone who knows the future. They know all the details including not only the end of their civilization, but the deaths of numerous worlds. Knowing this, they not only do nothing to prevent it, but actively ensure that the future they know about comes to pass. Would you think this person a protagonist or an antagonist?

I tell you there's 3 people who's world was destroyed. Their civilization is gone, their loved ones have been turned into malformed creatures with no memories. They spend the next 12k+ years trying to make everyone whole again and restore what was lost. Would you think them antagonists or protagonists?

[Yencat]

Eh, debatable. The Ascians ultimately had a sympathetic backstory regardless of their appearance.

I'm not suggesting they're only sympathetic characters because of how they look, because of course they are. But their appeal is massively enhanced by all being very handsome/pretty people, Venat included of course.