Endwalker's message (spoilers!)

[Vahlnir]

Zodiark saved them and the world. Were it not for him the world wouldn’t exist. I think the blame falls more upon the likes of Venat whom, if she had informed Hades and Hythlodaeus of the issues, Zodiark would’ve given them enough time to presumably solve the issue of Meteion. I guess you can argue that with Zodiark saving the world he in doing so caused suffering that otherwise wouldn’t exist since everyone would be dead but that’s essentially Meteion’s mindset so

I think a lot of it came down to Venat not wanting to create a time paradox of some kind. In her eyes, the time of the Ancients was coming to a close. Even if she had come forward with the information she had available, her peers might have thought their civilization too big to fail and ignored her. That and Meteion was hanging out at the edge of the known universe, where she couldn't be reached (well, back then anyway). And the Final Days hit them pretty soon after she vanished, so they didn't have time to construct a means to reach her. Venat was looking to preserve a future that could still be saved.

[EaraGrace]

Zodiark saved them and the world. Were it not for him the world wouldn’t exist. I think the blame falls more upon the likes of Venat whom, if she had informed Hades and Hythlodaeus of the issues, Zodiark would’ve given them enough time to presumably solve the issue of Meteion. I guess you can argue that with Zodiark saving the world he in doing so caused suffering that otherwise wouldn’t exist since everyone would be dead but that’s essentially Meteion’s mindset so

The point of Venats plan, a plan Emet and Hythlo agree with once they remember everything, are that relying on a deity to solve all your problems will at the end be self defeating, and that what is needed is a response to despair. You inevitably will have to face suffering, and the Ancients, who have shown no willingness to accept that, would fail. Zodiark doesn’t solve the problem, he buys time.

[Phaty]

Y-yall do know venat couldn't say anything, right? The final days for the ancients and the sundering had to play out. Eledibus literally said you cannot change what happened or it changes the future thus making nothing possible. We even try not to say anything but emet and venat were way too smart and figured it out that were were not who we say we are and from the future. The only way to win was in our time with info on the threat we got from its start

[KizuyaKatogami]

I think a lot of it came down to Venat not wanting to create a time paradox of some kind. In her eyes, the time of the Ancients was coming to a close. Even if she had come forward with the information she had available, her peers might have thought their civilization too big to fail and ignored her. That and Meteion was hanging out at the edge of the known universe, where she couldn't be reached (well, back then anyway). And the Final Days hit them pretty soon after she vanished, so they didn't have time to construct a means to reach her. Venat was looking to preserve a future that could still be saved.

The thing is, even though Emet believes us, he says himself he needs to assist us due to his duty for the star, in the odd chance we are telling the truth. Him and Hythlo also both remark they know they were mind wiped, they can feel it. It’s as simple as her saying yes you were mind wiped. This is why. x,x, and x is happening etc.

It's also possible that Zodiark would have lead to the extinction of the ancients given that more of them were basically feeding themselves to it in hopes it would return the world to how it was before the end of days. They basically stopped looking to the future and wished to return to the past. Which by retaining the knowledge of Meteion's reports was a mindset that lead to the end of other worlds. So even if Zodiark had successfully restored the world to how it was before the end of days, the mindset created by the event would have likely lead to an end similar to other worlds meteion visited had experienced. Also given emet selch's initial reaction when the WoL informed them of the end of days it was likely reasoned providing that info after the memory wipe when no physical evidence was available wouldn't have accomplished anything.

I dont really agree with this. People act like they were sacrificing people every other day lmao. They had only sacrificed people a total of two times. A 3rd was on its way however it should be noted based on Emer's short story, they were extremely split on the decision. It's unlikely after the 3rd set they would continue to sacrifice to him, at that point what would they even be sacrificing for? They'd have everything back.

[Vahlnir]

The thing is, even though Emet believes us, he says himself he needs to assist us due to his duty for the star, in the odd chance we are telling the truth. Him and Hythlo also both remark they know they were mind wiped, they can feel it. It’s as simple as her saying yes you were mind wiped. This is why. x,x, and x is happening etc.


I dont really agree with this. People act like they were sacrificing people every other day lmao. They had only sacrificed people a total of two times. A 3rd was on its way however it should be noted based on Emer's short story, they were extremely split on the decision. It's unlikely after the 3rd set they would continue to sacrifice to him, at that point what would they even be sacrificing for? They'd have everything back.

And story wise, our characters and the game world would cease to exist if they had been allowed to intervene, not that they had much time to actually do anything anyway. So it would make sense that it would be more about saving the future than a doomed past. If they wanted to go about it your way, they'd have created an alternate timeline. I suppose that can't really be ruled out. Who knows, maybe the writers will get bored and want to try something new somewhere down the line. But if it's not done right it would be an absolute failure.

[Lauront]

The thing is, even though Emet believes us, he says himself he needs to assist us due to his duty for the star, in the odd chance we are telling the truth. Him and Hythlo also both remark they know they were mind wiped, they can feel it. It’s as simple as her saying yes you were mind wiped. This is why. x,x, and x is happening etc.


I dont really agree with this. People act like they were sacrificing people every other day lmao. They had only sacrificed people a total of two times. A 3rd was on its way however it should be noted based on Emer's short story, they were extremely split on the decision. It's unlikely after the 3rd set they would continue to sacrifice to him, at that point what would they even be sacrificing for? They'd have everything back.

I also don't agree with what you're responding to, but I think the main reason they wanted them out of Zodiark, besides missing their own, is that they placed particular importance on being able to return to the star when the time was right and it's not clear they'd be able to do so while part of Zodiark.

And story wise, our characters and the game world would cease to exist if they had been allowed to intervene, not that they had much time to actually do anything anyway. So it would make sense that it would be more about saving the future than a doomed past. If they wanted to go about it your way, they'd have created an alternate timeline. I suppose that can't really be ruled out. Who knows, maybe the writers will get bored and want to try something new somewhere down the line. But if it's not done right it would be an absolute failure.

I think that is the real reason, tbh. That, plus they didn't want to spend too much time putting in the narrative work to get Emet and Venat to reconcile, thus time travel supplying her with some rationale that may well have been lacking in the first instance. I wouldn't say no to such an AU one day.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The point of Venats plan, a plan Emet and Hythlo agree with once they remember everything, are that relying on a deity to solve all your problems will at the end be self defeating, and that what is needed is a response to despair. You inevitably will have to face suffering, and the Ancients, who have shown no willingness to accept that, would fail. Zodiark doesn’t solve the problem, he buys time.

They faced suffering though. It was in their everyday lives it wasn’t something foreign to them from what we know especially from the short stories.Dunno where you see they showed no willingness to accept that, it was moreso due their their civilization style it wasn’t as common an occurrence as it is with sundered. As i said before he buys time yes, for them to be able to solve the issue. Also i don’t know if Emet and Hythlo specifically agree to the deity part, if it’s the end portion of EW you’re meaning, as much as it is helping the sundered is the only way to keep the planet from being killed by Meteion. In the end though Venat relied on a deity to help solve her problems so it rings a bit hollow in that regard. Even we, the WoL have relied on primals for things. Look at Eden and even the end of EW when we literally have primals summoned.

[Awarewolf]

Weird place to comment this, but I’m starting to think humanity is a simulation. An organic one. And we are plugged into it, got stuck, and can’t escape. So we hop into these avatars (human bodies) for another chance to wake up, but we fail, we die, and our soul has to make a new avatar. And I think the powers that be in this world (insert your favorite secret conspiracy organization here) know this, and are capitalizing on it, doing everything in their power to distract us in every way possible, to keep us from waking up. Because why be a normal person in Heaven when you can rule in this simulated Hell?

So every story I read lately, or in this case every RPG I play, reflects this theory at its core, in some way. I find it fascinating.

Anyway, not saying it’s true, I don’t know anything. Just a theory right now, but it’s a damn good one that explains a lot about the nature of reality and a pan dimensional existence.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Just wanted to say sorry for your loss, i hope you’re doing better now. I do agree with you a lot and i think it’s one of my biggest problems with this expansion. The entire theme is loss, with the main lyrics being loss fire and faith. It’s about despair and suffering so it’s hard to take the scions seriously when they really haven’t suffered as much compared to virtually anyone else, yet somehow are just immune to despair. I think at the very least it would’ve been a nice touch to see some of them almost turn and WE have to go and talk sense into them to calm them down, as a way of helping solidify our relationships with them. But as it stands they’re just untouchable immortal people who hardly have to struggle and suffer while everyone else does and then they go and preach and preach to other people. It just comes off to me as really shoddy. I do find it funny though how in HW they had that entire storyline of Yshtola’s aether slowly draining her life, and that just literally hasn’t ever been mentioned again. Once again, immortal scion who doesn’t have to suffer.

[Zukkii]

What a lot of people in this thread fail to realize, is that Venat's actions were the only ones who would break the cycle of the Final Days. Had the Ancients been successful in recreating their paradise, they would cause the Final Days again.

The reason why this would happen, is because they did not understood plight, suffering, and despair. They were all akin to gods in their own right, and they only knew of paradise. Emet-Selch's responses to Hermes proves that they wouldn't learn. In short, the Ancients seemingly perfections would obstruct them from learning about life's imperfections. Venat knew that this would happen, as she was already more enlightened than most of the other Ancients.

If Venat would tell the Convocation, then the only people who would be able to fix the problem would be unmade. Mankind of the future was the only one who would be able to deal with it, BECAUSE they suffer. They would be best equipped with dealing with it, because they found joy and meaning in the small happy moments. They basically spelled this part out within the story too, so I know not how it was missed.

Oh, and if Venat would tell the Convocation, she would become a pariah immediately. Place yourself in one of the members of the Convocation's seat, and think about how you would respond.
The woman who refuses to return to the star because "she feels she has yet another purpose" says that the end of the world is coming, and the people who were present were Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus but their memories are wiped.

Anyone remember Harold Camping and how everyone treated him like a fool and disillusioned old man? That's what would happen to Venat.