Specific Paladin Buff/Change Suggestion

[Undeadfire]

Warrior gets disproportionate attention because its crazy good in dungeons. In a raid/single target setting, however, PLD really shines.

Holmgang, on demand super heal, on demand counter part Veil, Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash are crazy stronger than Sheltron/Intervention. Sheltron/Intervention can soak more damage, BW/NS heal far more in value.

Holmgang is more broken than ever, 10s buff, 4 mins cooldown.

[Risvertasashi]

Holmgang, on demand super heal, on demand counter part Veil, Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash are crazy stronger than Sheltron/Intervention. Sheltron/Intervention can soak more damage, BW/NS heal far more in value.

Holmgang is more broken than ever, 10s buff, 4 mins cooldown.

You're just showing, once more, that you don't know the jobs very well.

Warrior super heal is not a super heal unless it has multiple targets.

In fact, in a raid setting, nascent is the exact same strength as holy spirit's self heal. And if you have a 2.4 GCD, you can use holy shelltron every 24s - very similar to that warrior 25s CD - which makes up for the parts of nascent/bloodwhetting that holy spirit doesn't have, and that you "only" get to spam holy spirit every minute.

Jeez, and here I thought only the healer forums got into this kind of stuff...

(Yeah, holmgang is good in its way, but has a higher healing requirement, and PLD has other stuff to compensate)

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

You're out of date - you're still thinking of PLD in shadowbringers.

PLD's MP economy has never been better, and clemency no longer desyncs the overall rotation. It still costs a GCD which is not good, but it's easier than ever to use.

But also, shelltron and requiescat self heal at no cost so you get a lot of sustainability without ever needing to fear losing a GCD to clemency. But if you do need even more, you can use it with far less penalty now.

I assure you I am not out dated with my assessment, PLD was technically 2 cooldowns behind the others in ShB, due to Sheltron not actually mitigating any damage it just removed the RNG element from blocking, now Holy Sheltron does actually provide mitigation. Still one cooldown behind the other tanks.

MP economy isn't necessarily the issue but doesn't change the fact Clemency Still uses MP as a resource without it you ain't casting anything, and once you run dry, it's gonna be a struggle just like in ShB to get MP back. Sure Holy Spirit/ Circle and Confiteor cost less but that doesn't mean you can't run into MP issues in prog or if you run into crappy situations.

"clemency no longer desyncs the overall rotation." what are you smoking? any deviation away from the standard rotation with Clemency after Requiescat desyncs the rest of the rotation from raid buffs, Paladin is the most strict rotation out of the four tanks. Paladin cannot delay it's rotation like the other 3 without incurring pretty substantial DPS loss. Even if you use Clemency inside of Requiescat you're gimping your DPS even more than it already is due to Paladin being under-tuned.

[Undeadfire]

You're just showing, once more, that you don't know the jobs very well.

Warrior super heal is not a super heal unless it has multiple targets.

In fact, in a raid setting, nascent is the exact same strength as holy spirit's self heal. And if you have a 2.4 GCD, you can use holy shelltron every 24s - very similar to that warrior 25s CD - which makes up for the parts of nascent/bloodwhetting that holy spirit doesn't have, and that you "only" get to spam holy spirit every minute.

Jeez, and here I thought only the healer forums got into this kind of stuff...

(Yeah, holmgang is good in its way, but has a higher healing requirement, and PLD has other stuff to compensate)

Bruh....

Equilibrium is so strong Thrill buffs it, now Equilibrium has Regen.

Doesn't matter if Paladin has Holy Sheltron/Holy Spirit healing.

Thrill is a cure, Equlibrium is a super heal + Regen, Storm Path heals. BW/NS feeds heal, damage reduction + barrier.

Holmgang can be popped 2-3x in a fight, HG is only 1-2x a fight.

[Risvertasashi]

MP economy isn't necessarily the issue but doesn't change the fact Clemency Still uses MP as a resource without it you ain't casting anything, and once you run dry, it's gonna be a struggle just like in ShB to get MP back. Sure Holy Spirit/ Circle and Confiteor cost less but that doesn't mean you can't run into MP issues in prog or if you run into crappy situations.

But you get to nearly full MP at the end of Requiescat. Yes, you still need a chunk going into it. But not nearly as much as used to be needed. Yes, Clemency isn't unlimited - but you can use it with far less penalty.

"clemency no longer desyncs the overall rotation." what are you smoking? any deviation away from the standard rotation with Clemency after Requiescat desyncs the rest of the rotation from raid buffs, Paladin is the most strict rotation out of the four tanks. Paladin cannot delay it's rotation like the other 3 without incurring pretty substantial DPS loss. Even if you use Clemency inside of Requiescat you're gimping your DPS even more than it already is due to Paladin being under-tuned.

Because Requiescat and Sword Oath have windows within which you can do their actions. The timer limits that somewhat but you have flexibility on when to execute those actions. It's not the end of the world to lose a GCD.

But as I've said repeatedly, I still realize that losing a GCD is very bad, particularly in a highly optimized raid scenario. So my emphasis on those other things was that it can be done without losing a GCD anymore. I mean, why spend for clemency when Requiescat is spamming self heals on you anyways and holy shelltron comes up so often?

The GCD option is there. And more usable than ever. But not ideal and anything that takes a GCD never will be ideal, I'm not disputing that part. But in less than ideal situations, it's more healing with the tons of healing PLD already has.

Bruh....

Equilibrium is so strong Thrill buffs it, now Equilibrium has Regen.

Doesn't matter if Paladin has Holy Sheltron/Holy Spirit healing.

Thrill is a cure, Equlibrium is a super heal + Regen, Storm Path heals. BW/NS feeds heal, damage reduction + barrier.

Holmgang can be popped 2-3x in a fight, HG is only 1-2x a fight.

And if we're going apples to oranges, Shelltron also gives guaranteed block (19% damage reduction whenever I use it, not sure if it varies based on stats), +15% flat damage reduction, independent of the standard tank CDs of course, and can heal the whole party (minus oneself, which is an odd quirk yes) even if it can't increase the barrier strength... and so on.

And, honestly, speaking as someone that plays healers too - if you're on warrior, your healers might still prefer you use regular mitigations on tankbusters, because a lot of warriors try to use holmgang where it isn't absolutely needed and it just increases the healing requirements (which translates into less party DPS by increasing the healing load). But, yes, warrior can cheese tankbusters/tank swaps slightly more often.

And then DRK over there doesn't have nearly so much, and has the highest invuln heal requirement, but has high damage.

And maybe warrior does need to be toned down a bit, especially in dungeons. But PLD is strong. Maybe not in damage, but overall, it is strong.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

But you get to nearly full MP at the end of Requiescat. Yes, you still need a chunk going into it. But not nearly as much as used to be needed. Yes, Clemency isn't unlimited - but you can use it with far less penalty.

Emphasis on the word penalty, it is nonetheless punished for its use, the point I was making in my first post, Clemency requires 2 resources to use, and you can still overspend in the improved MP economy.

Because Requiescat and Sword Oath have windows within which you can do their actions. The timer limits that somewhat but you have flexibility on when to execute those actions. It's not the end of the world to lose a GCD.

But as I've said repeatedly, I still realize that losing a GCD is very bad, particularly in a highly optimized raid scenario. So my emphasis on those other things was that it can be done without losing a GCD anymore. I mean, why spend for clemency when Requiescat is spamming self heals on you anyways and holy shelltron comes up so often?

The GCD option is there. And more usable than ever. But not ideal and anything that takes a GCD never will be ideal, I'm not disputing that part. But in less than ideal situations, it's more healing with the tons of healing PLD already has.

It's not even remotely close to what you have stated here, making use of Atonement or Requiescat stacks outside of their set place in the rotation should only be done where downtime will occur to reset Fight or Flight so as when the boss returns you can keep your rotation flowing as normal, or the boss is about to die and you want to dump as many hard hitting abilities in the remainder of the time left of the fight. Certain optimisations can be done like in the accessory EX trial, during meteor phase, you can pop Requiescat before he jumps to make a "Fight or Flight sandwich" Requiescat into Fight or Flight back into Requiescat. Outside of niche fight optimisations, you will force Paladin's rotation to desync.

[Armandin]

They really should just make Cover a personal CD with a different name, and rename Intervention to Cover. That way PLD still "has" Cover while also actually use it.