Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[Palladiamors]

EW mentioned that Ascians gave a "faulty" summoning spell to other races that incorporated tempering (to keep the process going), so they knew how to summon without tempering. Before EW I was of your opinion, know I just think devs wanted to go to X before EW and then switched to Y.

Yeah that became obvious at the end of Stormblood when we got redirected from the war with the Empire to go on a massive sidequest. Then they mentioned recently that they didn't have a plan and it all made sense. They don't have a narrative destination, they are just writing whatever as they go. Endwalker and its weird obsession with closing so many plot threads made that abundantly clear. It comes across as trying to finish off what was started before so they can do their own thing now. We'll see how that ends up but right now I am not exactly optimistic.

That being said, right now XIV is the golden child of MMO's so there won't be many people calling them on it. And even here, at what I consider to be the worst in so far as narrative and writing goes, its better than any other MMO story on the market.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I'm convinced that people don't actually read stories anymore, they just react to the moments in front of them entirely unmoored from their context.

The narrative function of utopias in stories is that they aren't possible. They're unsustainable. You can't live in paradise, because that's just not how life works. FFXIV constantly, constantly, constantly hammers and hammers this point at the player. The Ea had a "perfect" society. Didn't help. The people who summoned Ra La had a "perfect" society. It didn't work. The narrative purpose of Amaurot's flailing at armageddon was that they were trying to return to perfection at any cost, which again is impossible. Now, quibble with how muddled that portrayal gets in the story, sure. But pretending like Amaurot was a perfect society that was just murdering one subversive away from staying perfect, and you're the person for whom the point of utopian narratives goes whistling straight over your head. There's always juuuuuust one more adjustment to be made. Just one naysayer to murder. Just one policy to update. These stories have been with human society for thousands of years because they're telling you that thinking Utopia is just around the corner is nonsense. Stories are just as much theme as they are sequence of events, and modern fiction criticism fixates unhealthily on the What over the Why. It's not that the sequence of events is unimportant, it's that the story is trying to tell you something.

Not everyone is going to care what the writer’s opinion is though, they care about the overall lore of the game. Fact is they kind of stomped that and then some. It isn’t so much that the Ancients were this perfect society as it is they didn’t even get a fighting chance, Venat just slaughtered them.After going through Pandaemonium it’s clear things weren’t perfect and they seem to acknowledge that. However their society was one that was closer to it than say the sundered world. I mean even the dragons had a very good society but they were still wiped out because why? A lot of it just contradicts itself and doesn’t make sense.

[Theodric]

I'm convinced that people don't actually read stories anymore, they just react to the moments in front of them entirely unmoored from their context.

The narrative function of utopias in stories is that they aren't possible. They're unsustainable. You can't live in paradise, because that's just not how life works. FFXIV constantly, constantly, constantly hammers and hammers this point at the player. The Ea had a "perfect" society. Didn't help. The people who summoned Ra La had a "perfect" society. It didn't work. The narrative purpose of Amaurot's flailing at armageddon was that they were trying to return to perfection at any cost, which again is impossible. Now, quibble with how muddled that portrayal gets in the story, sure. But pretending like Amaurot was a perfect society that was just murdering one subversive away from staying perfect, and you're the person for whom the point of utopian narratives goes whistling straight over your head. There's always juuuuuust one more adjustment to be made. Just one naysayer to murder. Just one policy to update. These stories have been with human society for thousands of years because they're telling you that thinking Utopia is just around the corner is nonsense. Stories are just as much theme as they are sequence of events, and modern fiction criticism fixates unhealthily on the What over the Why. It's not that the sequence of events is unimportant, it's that the story is trying to tell you something.

The 'narrative' can say what it likes, though the writers themselves are on record as stating that there's rarely a defined 'good' or 'evil' within the setting and merely matters of perspective.

Venat isn't some brave hero who saw what others did not. She's an individual who denied her people the opportunity to properly prepare themselves against the threat of the Final Days. The Plenty is a separate world to that of the Ancients and there's no established guarantee that the Ancients would have gone in the exact same direction. The Dragons, too, had a paradise but lost it to war through no fault of their own. Nor does it really align with what the Sundered are doing, given that the trend so far has been for the Scions to move from region to region and establish their own version of 'paradise' upon everybody else with the majority of grit within each nation eroded away or removed entirely in the search for a 'better tomorrow'.

The writing isn't particularly deep or consistent, either. If it's 'bad' for the Ancients to bring back their loved ones, then why is acceptable for the Scions to do the same? Using the power of the same entity who prevented the Ancients from doing it, mind you. If anything, that can be taken as Venat admitting that her methods were incorrect after all and that doing everything possible to preserve one's loved ones is the correct route to take.

Which it is - because there's no reason for anyone to just roll over and die and accept that their friends, family and neighbours 'need' to be wiped out to make way for someone else.

I don't think the story knew what it was doing in the finale and it certainly didn't commit to the 'themes' that it put front and centre. Having done many of the side quests, I noticed that many were about accepting death and moving on - which is all the stranger when that, conveniently, never applies to the Scions or City State leaders.

Each to their own, though, I suppose. Nobody is even obligated to agree with the 'themes' pushed by a story, at any rate. Different characters and factions resonate differently, after all.

[Powercow]

I mean even the dragons had a very good society but they were still wiped out because why? A lot of it just contradicts itself and doesn’t make sense.

Because an army of angry robots from space killed them? Then what few survivors remained were unable to reproduce because of the desolation/radiation/waste/pollution/whatever caused by said robots.

The Dragons weren't one of the races anyone points to for a society that collapses on itself. That's the robots who attacked 'em.

[Theodric]

The Dragons weren't one of the races anyone points to for a society that collapses on itself. That's the robots who attacked 'em.

Which, I suspect, is what he's getting at. There's nothing suggesting that the Ancients would have gone the same way as the Plenty other than arguable headcanon. Ultimately Venat denied them the ability to even try, though we already know that Zodiark served as a ward against the Final Days and persisted as a ward even when Sundered. Imagine how much more powerful that ward would have been had the Sundering not occurred?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Because an army of angry robots from space killed them? Then what few survivors remained were unable to reproduce because of the desolation/radiation/waste/pollution/whatever caused by said robots.

The Dragons weren't one of the races anyone points to for a society that collapses on itself. That's the robots who attacked 'em.

So the writing and narrative is saying that no matter what you do you’re screwed? Whether you seek perfection or not your entire society can fail and perish. How is this any different from what Meteion did to the Ancients? An angry entity tried to end their world and cause mass extinction all for something that wasn’t even guaranteed.

[Powercow]

So the writing and narrative is saying that no matter what you do you’re screwed?

Er, well if an army of angry robots from space attacks yeah you're probably screwed. I don't think that bit is that deep.

Whether you seek perfection or not your entire society can fail and perish. How is this any different from what Meteion did to the Ancients? An angry entity tried to end their world and cause mass extinction all for something that wasn’t even guaranteed.

The Omicrons attacked because they sought self-improvement through combat. Meteion did so because she felt she was sparing them the pain of existence. It's not a good reason, but she was a poorly-programmed robot herself so her motives being weak kinda fits.

Imagine how much more powerful that ward would have been had the Sundering not occurred?

Zodiark kept demanding more sacrifices, presumably to keep the shield going. (Elidibus was his moral center, so in theory it'd have been for the noble but single-minded goal of "save the world".) If he'd been left to his own devices, eventually there'd be nobody left to protect. It wasn't a perfect creation; Emet himself says they kinda rushed him out the door because of the ongoing apocalypse. Had Venat told them about it earlier, they likely could have more time to think it through and come up with a better plan, but it didn't seem like they were super interested in hearing her perspective on how to do it.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Er, well if an army of angry robots from space attacks yeah you're probably screwed. I don't think that bit is that deep.

The Omicrons attacked because they sought self-improvement through combat. Meteion did so because she felt she was sparing them the pain of existence. It's not a good reason, but she was a poorly-programmed robot herself so her motives being weak kinda fits.

Zodiark kept demanding more sacrifices, presumably to keep the shield going. (Elidibus was his moral center, so in theory it'd have been for the noble but single-minded goal of "save the world".) If he'd been left to his own devices, eventually there'd be nobody left to protect. It wasn't a perfect creation; Emet himself says they kinda rushed him out the door because of the ongoing apocalypse. Had Venat told them about it earlier, they likely could have more time to think it through and come up with a better plan, but it didn't seem like they were super interested in hearing her perspective on how to do it.

Could you please point me to where it states he was demanding my sacrifices for this “ward”? Because from what i recall it’s only stated that they sacrificed 2 times. Once to save the world. Another to restore life to the planet. And the 3rd and final set of sacrifices was to be for bringing back the loved ones trapped inside Zodiark. Again i don’t get this thing about they weren’t super interested, when Emet himself says he puts the safety of the star over anything else even if he doesn’t believe someone’s story. He also knew he was mind wiped so that would give more ground for Venat to use.Also in regards to Zodiark being rushed, he had been studied as a concept in Akadaemia.

[Driavna]

The thing with the dragons was explained by some of the secondary quest at Ultima Thule. Pretty much they gave up hope and stood there to die instead of following Midgardsormr like he/she asked.

[kpxmanifesto]

i've concluded that people are just mad i'm critiquing their favorite games' story. i started in 2019, and square had a great thing rolling with shadowbringers but they just dropped the ball.

There will always be FFXIV fanboys that will feel insulted if you criticize the game. I'm sorry to say but that's just what the community here is like. Endwalker's story was sloppy but there's a lot more to this game than that, such as the gameplay and endgame raids.