An ominous premonition? (Slight spoiler for the Studium quests)

[Kranel_San]

with the introduction of dynamis its possible both the lifestream and 7 heavens/hells exist simultaneously.

Aetherial afterlife where all living aether goes to.
Dynamis afterlife where all living dynamis goes to.

[Zjar]

Idea: Themis (probably Elidibus) says that the beast stirs down below, and mentions Pandaemonium. We also know that the ancients referred to the sounds of the end sounding like "a keening from the earth", not of the skies. A curious distinction. Perhaps some beast deep in the planet heard the song of oblivion and amplifies it? Is that what's gone loose in Pandaemonium? Is that the serpent that sleeps?

[Lyth]

My suspicion is that Eric completely misread his father, and that Lahabrea's obsession with his work as well as the hemitheos experiments in Pandaemonium were all part of an attempt to bring Athena back to life by binding her soul to Creation magic. The solution would have struck Lahabrea as obvious following the events of the Shadowbringers short story 'Tales from the Shadows: Through His Eyes', in which a wayward soul resists the pull of the underworld by spontaneously binding itself to his own creation, the Phoinix. That was the significance of bringing that same entity in as a boss this tier, an expansion later.

I think that Athena's despair over the matter will be the trigger event for Amaurot's Final Days, much like Khalzahl was for Thavnair, and the 'terrible cry' will turn out to be the sound of her transformation from within the depths of Pandaemonium. We know that Final Days does not physically manifest itself until after the first transformation occurs. Watching her die a second time will probably break Lahabrea, trigger his spiral into madness, and cement an eternal grudge against us. Azem might front the blame and get exiled as a consequence of it. The hemitheos concept will also probably get reused later on, when Elidibus is sacrificed to form Zodiark's heart.

The 'serpent devouring its own tail' is 'Ouroboros'. It's an ancient Egyptian symbol for rebirth, and it likely symbolizes the cyclical nature of the lifestream through birth and death. It may turn out to have a more literal meaning as a 'lifestream primal', but let's assume that it's purely symbolic for now. The wedges probably have more to do with the flow of the lifestream and what's happening to the reflections and the Void.

[Tehmon]

My suspicion is that Eric completely misread his father, and that Lahabrea's obsession with his work as well as the hemitheos experiments in Pandaemonium were all part of an attempt to bring Athena back to life by binding her soul to Creation magic. The solution would have struck Lahabrea as obvious following the events of the Shadowbringers short story 'Tales from the Shadows: Through His Eyes', in which a wayward soul resists the pull of the underworld by spontaneously binding itself to his own creation, the Phoinix. That was the significance of bringing that same entity in as a boss this tier, an expansion later.

I think that Athena's despair over the matter will be the trigger event for Amaurot's Final Days, much like Khalzahl was for Thavnair, and the 'terrible cry' will turn out to be the sound of her transformation from within the depths of Pandaemonium. We know that Final Days does not physically manifest itself until after the first transformation occurs. Watching her die a second time will probably break Lahabrea, trigger his spiral into madness, and cement an eternal grudge against us. Azem might front the blame and get exiled as a consequence of it. The hemitheos concept will also probably get reused later on, when Elidibus is sacrificed to form Zodiark's heart.

The 'serpent devouring its own tail' is 'Ouroboros'. It's an ancient Egyptian symbol for rebirth, and it likely symbolizes the cyclical nature of the lifestream through birth and death. It may turn out to have a more literal meaning as a 'lifestream primal', but let's assume that it's purely symbolic for now. The wedges probably have more to do with the flow of the lifestream and what's happening to the reflections and the Void.

I want to believe this is true, because it sounds fascinating. It would be pretty massive if the WoL ends up being in Pandemonium as the first Final Day befalls the ancient world (unless I'm remembering wrong and the cry didn't automatically launch the final days as we know them). But gosh, it sounds like an extremely grim ending for a raid! Whatever the truth that fills Elidibus'/Themis' heart is better be good because I was completely fine leaving Elpis the first time without interfering further as we needed to go back to our world and to our fight, but this time around there is no time constraint and we have averted the Final Days, it's harder for me to accept just leaving the ancients to their own devices, unless the story makes it extremely clear that if we meddle with this timeline, there will be severe consequences. No more leaving it up for debate, please!

[Lyth]

Lv. 84 'In Shadow's Wake':
Watcher: 'One day, from within the earth, a terrible cry issued forth, affecting a profound change in all manner of life.'

That sound probably comes from the transformation of the first blasphemy, regardless of circumstance. In Thavnair, we investigate Svarbhanu's origin after completing Vanaspati, and we find out that the sky only changed after Khalzahl's bankruptcy and his subsequent transformation. The index event has to happen first. It's really the same thing here. And an Amaurotian is too aetherically dense to transform, but... a hemitheos isn't.

I'm only drawing a link to the Final Days with Pandaemonium because the message that we receive through the unetched Lahabrea crystal indicates that the 'star is in grave danger', and that's the most likely cause barring any other world-ending threats. At some point in this raid storyline, we'll probably see someone record that same message on the crystal and toss it into the future.

In the Tales from the Shadows series, it looked like Elidibus very much looked up to Azem, in much the same way that G'raha does the player character now (which is interesting, because they were foils in 5.3, and there's a dialogue choice with G'raha that explores this parallel with Elidibus). You do get a sense of that warmth as well when Elidibus talks about Azem in the Pandaemonium storyline.

In 5.3 Elidibus talks about a promise that he once made to 'someone' that he would protect the planet. A promise that he could remember, but not to whom. My guess is that person was Azem, except that he lost his memory of the true 'cause' behind his fight along with his identity when he was sacrificed to become Zodiark's heart. The realization of how these plot threads came together and the final recognition of a lost, forgotten friend is probably the truth that filled his heart.

So yeah, I'm expecting them to go straight for the gut with this one.

[Tehmon]

That definitely makes a lot of sense, yeah.

But I think the thing that doesn't really add up with this theory is that if hemitheos-Athena-blasphemy is the source of the cry and a raid boss to boot, well, is WoL truly the only one to recognize its link to the Final Days? I feel like that's a pretty big hint/piece of the puzzle in terms of ancients figuring out what's going on. Unless of course we fight the blasphemy by ourselves and Themis and Eric are nowhere to be seen, but that seems awfully convenient. Perhaps Lahabrea will meddle in this scenario somehow.

[RyuDragnier]

That definitely makes a lot of sense, yeah.

But I think the thing that doesn't really add up with this theory is that if hemitheos-Athena-blasphemy is the source of the cry and a raid boss to boot, well, is WoL truly the only one to recognize its link to the Final Days? I feel like that's a pretty big hint/piece of the puzzle in terms of ancients figuring out what's going on. Unless of course we fight the blasphemy by ourselves and Themis and Eric are nowhere to be seen, but that seems awfully convenient. Perhaps Lahabrea will meddle in this scenario somehow.

It's possible he will, with the 2nd tier ending with us "locked" from Pandaemonium in the past, just for us to find it in the present and put down the beast once and for all (or at least the Source's version of it).

[Cleretic]

I didn't expect this thread, of all things, to be one revived after Dawntrail. And I certainly didn't expect to be the one doing it. But here we are.

There's a quest that seems to get conspicuously close to this one; It Belongs In A Museum, the quest for one of the new expert dungeons, Tender Valley. There's a tail end where we look into an old legend potentially relating to the dungeon; the relevant line is here. (Still spoilered for being soon after the expansion)

The devout who held vigil of the temple held this belief: “When the great serpent doth awaken, its coil shall envelop the world.” In other words, the creature's discovery was itself a pretext to legitimize their territorial expansion north.

Now, this isn't the same, but there definitely seem to be similarities in imagery and language, so we can plausibly say that it's from the same culture; either a different story about the same figure, or perhaps a later part of the same prophecy; if so, we at least have a plausible argument that the Golden Dhyata was from Tural, although I'd be hesitant to associate it to any civilization in particular.

And if that prophecy is indeed connected to the Tender Valley dungeon, then we probably also know exactly which serpent that the myth(s) refer to.

Scree.

[jadeharley]

Just dropping my theory here:

The use of "wedge" in "Thus, seven wedges must be driven into its back." is a bit strange. Looking through the original Japanese translation, this term is used in very few places. The most notable of which is the House of the Crooked Coin, or "wedge hollow" as it's known in Japanese. This actually does connect it to the lifestream interpretation, as the Dotharl believe jumping into the hollow ends the cycle of reincarnation.


Bonus, crackpot theory, dawntrail 98+ edition:

Sphene is Greek for "wedge"

[Iscah]

The use of "wedge" in "Thus, seven wedges must be driven into its back." is a bit strange. Looking through the original Japanese translation, this term is used in very few places. The most notable of which is the House of the Crooked Coin, or "wedge hollow" as it's known in Japanese. This actually does connect it to the lifestream interpretation, as the Dotharl believe jumping into the hollow ends the cycle of reincarnation.

Do we know what the name "House of the Crooked Coin" is supposed to be referencing? It sounds like it should have a particular meaning/intent behind it but there's no obvious association to either the location's appearance or the sidequest where we learn more about it.