Balance between SGE and SCH

[PikoAliapoh]

I've mained SCH for years.... Without getting into skills and what could be done for the job, I think the OP still has a point. It feels underwhelming now compared to other healer jobs.

SCH used to be the niche barrier healer. We'll know how things shake out more with new raids and patches, but SGE seems snappier, more DPS, and apparently can overwrite SCH shields with weaker ones.

I'm just not seeing SCH's selling point or utility anymore compared to other healing jobs. SCH is a job that now feels best suited for learning parties when you need to overcompensate for players who don't know mechanics (e.g. expedient). If I'm running raids or even dungeons with a group who knows the basics of how to play, I feel like any of the other healer jobs would serve the party better.

[Dearche]

I've mained SCH for years.... Without getting into skills and what could be done for the job, I think the OP still has a point. It feels underwhelming now compared to other healer jobs.

SCH used to be the niche barrier healer. We'll know how things shake out more with new raids and patches, but SGE seems snappier, more DPS, and apparently can overwrite SCH shields with weaker ones.

I'm just not seeing SCH's selling point or utility anymore compared to other healing jobs. SCH is a job that now feels best suited for learning parties when you need to overcompensate for players who don't know mechanics (e.g. expedient). If I'm running raids or even dungeons with a group who knows the basics of how to play, I feel like any of the other healer jobs would serve the party better.

I've also mained SCH for years, and have only switched to SGE due to how good it feels to play.

I think your logic is quite flawed though, as 90% of the time you're effectively dealing with prog in the first place. Both actual prog as well as weekly raids you effectively have to treat in a similar manner in that people die over lack of knowledge/skill as well as laziness all the time. SCH's overcompensation lets us deal with that quite well, which means that only on speed kills and farms does SCH lose its appeal. But at that point, who cares about such details. Speed kills will optimize to the point that any weird thing (including the chance to completely ignore mechanics) can be the reason why you pick particular jobs, and for farm, nobody cares what you take as long as it doesn't increase the chance of a wipe.

As things stand, as a SGE, I want my cohealer to be SCH of all things rather than an AST or WHM. People are really undervaluing expediant and protraction. Maybe protraction isn't some god skill, but expediant certainly is, and I strongly believe that prog groups will be begging for SCHs who know how to use expedient properly.

[Sighearth]

Not every GCD heal is the same.
Helios: 400 healing potency, 15y radius, 700 MP (on the healer with infinite MP), costs 250 damage potency
Cure III: 600 healing potency, 6y radius, 1500 MP (on the healer with the worst MP economy), costs 310 damage potency.

None of this screams "more efficient" at all.

Yours is indeed a flawed logic. Bigger shields and Expedient are very strong exactly because they are not mandatory. As such, they are an advantage and not a requirement. Why do you think Divine Veil, Shake it off or Passage of Arms are strong skills? Becausethey are not mandatory (nothing is anyway) and represent a clear advantage that give you an easier time in prog/in some strats.

Unless a job is hilariously undertuned (like PLD and DNC at the moment), it doesn't matter. SCH and SGE have both their pros and cons (and they could even be used together to great results, making your point even worse). If and when Chain Stratagem gives SCH higher rDPS, will you be asking for SGE buffs because there is no reason to use it?

1) It actually screams efficiency, suppose you need 4000 potency to heal the party. WHM -> 6.6 Cure III (10 000 MP) and 2046 damage potency cost.
AST -> 10 Helios -> (7000 MP) 2500 damage potency cost.
So cure 3 achieves that in less gcds (meaning faster), costing less damage. If you use 2 thin airs, the MP cost will be the same (7000 MP)

2) I'm not saying that they are not strong enough because those are not mandatory, what I'm saying is that they will NOT be used to guarantee a sch,PLD,etc a spot exactly because they are not mandatory. What is mandatory is damage, if the damage discrepancy between 2 jobs is high it doesn't matter any other utility that does not translate to damage. SGE have 30% more free heals than SCH while also doing more damage. That 30% translates directly into damage that makes the situation worse. Now get SCH and don't use ED at all to compete with SGE healing, you will be healing more than SGE but SCH dps will be so much worse than SGE that this discrepancy will makes SGE objectively better choice. SCH can be behind SGE and terms of DPS and healing, even if chain surpasses the breakpoint of 8% SCHs DPS, the problem is that 30% free healing difference is too much. For SCH to be close to SGE (even if it loses by a small margin) it will be healing way less. Can bigger shields. expedience, translate in more raid dps? Maybe in niche situations that more likely than not will not make SCH a more attractive choice.

3) SCH and SGE working good does not goes against my argument. On the contrary, SCH can't replace SGE so it works with it because it does more damage than AST currently. As WHM can't free heal, the other contender would be SCH or AST (that can free heal) since AST dps is way too low right now, SCH wins out. If AST gets a slight dps potency adjust then the speed kill/optimization comp will not be SCH/SGE but AST/SGE.

[Liam_Harper]

that was just an example, WHM still has more on demand GCD pure heal than AST which is a niche that may be used in a fight

WHM literally only has Cure III over AST and there is no niche for Cure III. There is nowhere you need to spam it. There wasn't in ShB either and now we have buffed heals and abilities specifically designed to handle back to back raid damage. Cure III doesn't even beat Plenary + Lily. That's assuming your party is neatly stacked for you, in Duty Finder you might as well take it off your bar because 9 times out of 10 everyone is scattered.

AST has tons of burst heal with Star, Macrocosmos, Neutral Sect, CoOpp, CU, Horoscope Helios and AspHelios (which is now 1000 total potency). That niche situation once a fight on Savage where multiple Cure III might seem like it's useful, an AST can heal three times over.

[Sighearth]

WHM literally only has Cure III over AST and there is no niche for Cure III. There is nowhere you need to spam it. There wasn't in ShB either and now we have buffed heals and abilities specifically designed to handle back to back raid damage. Cure III doesn't even beat Plenary + Lily. That's assuming your party is neatly stacked for you, in Duty Finder you might as well take it off your bar because 9 times out of 10 everyone is scattered.

AST has tons of burst heal with Star, Macrocosmos, Neutral Sect, CoOpp, CU, Horoscope Helios and AspHelios (which is now 1000 total potency). That niche situation once a fight on Savage where multiple Cure III might seem like it's useful, an AST can heal three times over.

Hmm terminal relativity, Adds enrage phase in TEA are some examples that cure 3 is pretty strong. Aside from that, yea AST has more free healing oGCD healing (way more) but at least WHM dps is much better than AST. In the case of SGE/SCH imagine if WHM did more dps than AST but also healed more.

[rewd]

1) It actually screams efficiency, suppose you need 4000 potency to heal the party. WHM -> 6.6 Cure III (10 000 MP) and 2046 damage potency cost.
AST -> 10 Helios -> (7000 MP) 2500 damage potency cost.
So cure 3 achieves that in less gcds (meaning faster), costing less damage. If you use 2 thin airs, the MP cost will be the same (7000 MP)

2) I'm not saying that they are not strong enough because those are not mandatory, what I'm saying is that they will NOT be used to guarantee a sch,PLD,etc a spot exactly because they are not mandatory. What is mandatory is damage, if the damage discrepancy between 2 jobs is high it doesn't matter any other utility that does not translate to damage. SGE have 30% more free heals than SCH while also doing more damage. That 30% translates directly into damage that makes the situation worse. Now get SCH and don't use ED at all to compete with SGE healing, you will be healing more than SGE but SCH dps will be so much worse than SGE that this discrepancy will makes SGE objectively better choice. SCH can be behind SGE and terms of DPS and healing, even if chain surpasses the breakpoint of 8% SCHs DPS, the problem is that 30% free healing difference is too much. For SCH to be close to SGE (even if it loses by a small margin) it will be healing way less. Can bigger shields. expedience, translate in more raid dps? Maybe in niche situations that more likely than not will not make SCH a more attractive choice.

3) SCH and SGE working good does not goes against my argument. On the contrary, SCH can't replace SGE so it works with it because it does more damage than AST currently. As WHM can't free heal, the other contender would be SCH or AST (that can free heal) since AST dps is way too low right now, SCH wins out. If AST gets a slight dps potency adjust then the speed kill/optimization comp will not be SCH/SGE but AST/SGE.

1) You had to use a hyperbole to "prove" that Cure III is great/can make a difference. Why do I even need that much healing? Why do I use 10 Helios and not my plethora of oGCDs (that are also on a short CD)? it doesn't make sense.

2) I don't know how you can get the point and also miss it at the same time. If the damage difference between two jobs is not significant enough (like between Sage and Scholar), then there's not an issue. When the difference is significant (DRK and PLD), the undertuned job does need to be buffed. It's as simple as that.

3) SCH can't replace SGE? I'm pretty sure SCH was able to clear current EXs and I'm pretty sure it won't have any problem with upcoming Savage.

You are talking in hyperboles, making assumptions that conveniently ignore other factors (if AST can get a DPS buff, why can't WHM, for example?) and most importantly you are conflating balance and speedrun meta for no particular reason.

[Sighearth]

1) You had to use a hyperbole to "prove" that Cure III is great/can make a difference. Why do I even need that much healing? Why do I use 10 Helios and not my plethora of oGCDs (that are also on a short CD)? it doesn't make sense.

2) I don't know how you can get the point and also miss it at the same time. If the damage difference between two jobs is not significant enough (like between Sage and Scholar), then there's not an issue. When the difference is significant (DRK and PLD), the under tuned job does need to be buffed. It's as simple as that.

3) SCH can't replace SGE? I'm pretty sure SCH was able to clear current EXs and I'm pretty sure it won't have any problem with upcoming Savage.

You are talking in hyperboles, making assumptions that conveniently ignore other factors (if AST can get a DPS buff, why can't WHM, for example?) and most importantly you are conflating balance and speedrun meta for no particular reason.

1) Its not a hyperbole, cure III is a more efficient healing GCD. That was the comparison.

2) Our definitions of significant are widely different. If you take ONLY the dps difference between 95% percentile SGE and SCHs from both primals, SCH does 5.3% less dps than SGE. In the same metric with DRK and PLD is 8.2%. In fights where the healing is a null point. If you consider SGE doing 5.3% more damage with 30% more free healing (that is not currently used as this is still easy content) "not significant enough" I don't know what to say. If that extra 30% is required (i.e SCH not using ED because it needs to heal) than that 5.3 can easily top that 8.2% that you consider "significant"

3) Completing content was never an argument You can clear both primals solo healing, even with no heals at all. You can even clear UCOB with only tanks.

It doesn't matter what kind of meta you want to choose, if a healer can bring more dps and more heals it will be meta in anything.

Just a quick edit. Energy drain is around 5% of SCH DPS if used in full. That 5.3% difference is already accounting for all stacks going into ED. Wanna heal close to SGE? Wanna spend your stacks in healing so you can bring that 30% margin down and do 5% less damage? Then the difference would be higher than 9% in DPS. Which by your standards is "significant"

[Sighearth]

Wanna (as sch) heal as much if not a little bit higher than SGE? Then do 9% less dps. Wanna do comparable DPS (5.3% less) then heal 30% less. How is this not significant. My point is, let SGE do 5.3% more dps its fine, just lets bring that 30% less healing down to a 15% maybe 10%.

[CrimsonGunner]

1) It actually screams efficiency, suppose you need 4000 potency to heal the party. WHM -> 6.6 Cure III (10 000 MP) and 2046 damage potency cost.
AST -> 10 Helios -> (7000 MP) 2500 damage potency cost.
So cure 3 achieves that in less gcds (meaning faster), costing less damage. If you use 2 thin airs, the MP cost will be the same (7000 MP)

2) I'm not saying that they are not strong enough because those are not mandatory, what I'm saying is that they will NOT be used to guarantee a sch,PLD,etc a spot exactly because they are not mandatory. What is mandatory is damage, if the damage discrepancy between 2 jobs is high it doesn't matter any other utility that does not translate to damage. SGE have 30% more free heals than SCH while also doing more damage. That 30% translates directly into damage that makes the situation worse. Now get SCH and don't use ED at all to compete with SGE healing, you will be healing more than SGE but SCH dps will be so much worse than SGE that this discrepancy will makes SGE objectively better choice. SCH can be behind SGE and terms of DPS and healing, even if chain surpasses the breakpoint of 8% SCHs DPS, the problem is that 30% free healing difference is too much. For SCH to be close to SGE (even if it loses by a small margin) it will be healing way less. Can bigger shields. expedience, translate in more raid dps? Maybe in niche situations that more likely than not will not make SCH a more attractive choice.

3) SCH and SGE working good does not goes against my argument. On the contrary, SCH can't replace SGE so it works with it because it does more damage than AST currently. As WHM can't free heal, the other contender would be SCH or AST (that can free heal) since AST dps is way too low right now, SCH wins out. If AST gets a slight dps potency adjust then the speed kill/optimization comp will not be SCH/SGE but AST/SGE.

you are kind of wrong with comparing helios and cure III in 2 regards.

1) helios equal to whm medica except helios cost 700 compare to whm medica 900 and has 1.5 cast time compare to 2 seconds for medica.

2) cure III while having ability to target, its range is 6y meaning u have to be super close to the target to feel that, and while you compare 1 cure III spam to helios cure III cost 1500 mp while helios cost 700 meaning ast will reduce his mp less and also can wave ogcd with helios something whm cant do as easy after cure III or medica allowing him to surpass cure III effect and even range.

those are 2 crucial impacts that allow fluid healing compare to whm right now and since the only difference here is cure III your points that cure III makes it worth it cause its not mendatory the same can be said about ast ogcd and with that makes ast even more appealing for healing then whm cause he can spam even more faster and chain healing properly if needed unlike cure III spam.

[Sighearth]

you are kind of wrong with comparing helios and cure III in 2 regards.

1) helios equal to whm medica except helios cost 700 compare to whm medica 900 and has 1.5 cast time compare to 2 seconds for medica.

2) cure III while having ability to target, its range is 6y meaning u have to be super close to the target to feel that, and while you compare 1 cure III spam to helios cure III cost 1500 mp while helios cost 700 meaning ast will reduce his mp less and also can wave ogcd with helios something whm cant do as easy after cure III or medica allowing him to surpass cure III effect and even range.

those are 2 crucial impacts that allow fluid healing compare to whm right now and since the only difference here is cure III your points that cure III makes it worth it cause its not mendatory the same can be said about ast ogcd and with that makes ast even more appealing for healing then whm cause he can spam even more faster and chain healing properly if needed unlike cure III spam.

I think you missed some of my previous posts in this topic. Doing 6 cure III with 2 thin air is the same as 10 helios as I explained before. I was doing a comparison between those 2 gcds (helios and cure 3) in a situation where you would need burst aoe heal on demand (meaning without cds so GCD heals) WHM still is a power house in GCD heal potency which is a niche that WHM could have a lead in comparison to AST. I'm not comparing their full toolkits. Obviously AST full kit is stronger healing wise than WHM. Yet WHM does way more damage than AST currently if someone can carry the heals. What if AST despite having way more heals also did more damage than WHM? This is what the situation with SCH/SGE is. IF you want damage between (ast/whm) bring whm, if you want heals bring ast, which is fine. For SCH/SGE, if you wanna damage bring SGE (by 5.3%), if you wanna heals also bring SGE (by almost 30%!).