Summoner doesn't feel like it Summons.

[Vivix]

Before we had actual summons that could be commanded. Now it's just a ruin mage with different flavors of ruin.

[Atomos]

I'm personally in love with this summoner. You get the best of both worlds, one where the summons do a big attack then leaves and where Phoenix and Bahamut stays on the filed for a time.
And I don't get why people say they want it to be more challenging. you have plenty of challenging jobs. Less trivial is not always a bad thing, might just mean the job isn't for you.
I really hope they never change SMN from this, because it's always has been what I've envisioned since release.

[Anhra]

Before we had actual summons that could be commanded. Now it's just a ruin mage with different flavors of ruin.

The thing is, its not that the whole Pet Job idea was bad (except in execution on Squeenix part) in itself, but it was not a Final Fantasy Summoner which are known for their fashy big summons.

If any Job should become a proper Pet Job like SMN used to be, i think it should be MCH, because of its similarities to the Puppetmaster Job in FFXI.

[ArcaneCarbuncle]

The thing is, its not that the whole Pet Job idea was bad (except in execution on Squeenix part) in itself, but it was not a Final Fantasy Summoner which are known for their fashy big summons.

This has been pointed out at multiple points throughout this thread (and others) to be untrue; pretty much every main line game from FFX onwards (except XV) had some sort of Pet Job-esque gameplay, and the still managed to be flashy just fine. That's 20 years of History people keep ignoring.
Making Summoner a Pet job was perfectly valid based on the jobs history

I feel people tend to be too laser focused on the whole "Egi too smol" mentality, even though they could have easily traited them to be 'full' Primals within the old system just as they do now.

Everyone has their preferences, this is fine; but I don't think it's okay to keep ignoring all the times Summoning was more than just flashy aesthetic.

[Vallhallix]

The less pet focus, the better. They have always been clunky in this game with it's spaghetti code. And we have NEVER liked a single rework they ever did to any of the pets. Every patch there was something to complain about with the pets. One of the very reasons I opt to play White Mage and now Sage over Scholar due to how clunky the pet feels.

Honestly I didn't even need for carbuncle to stay with us. I'm fine with calling out the summons, don't need a pet that literally does nothing other than being a pikachu following you around. I have minions for that. Tbh the carbuncle doesn't even fit aesthetically anymore with current summoner. A remnant of an arcanist which current Summoner is by far more powerful than. Hell atleast update the carbuncle to reflect a stronger Summoner instead of having this cutesy pikachu

[SieyaM]

This has been pointed out at multiple points throughout this thread (and others) to be untrue; pretty much every main line game from FFX onwards (except XV) had some sort of Pet Job-esque gameplay, and the still managed to be flashy just fine. That's 20 years of History people keep ignoring.
Making Summoner a Pet job was perfectly valid based on the jobs history

I feel people tend to be too laser focused on the whole "Egi too smol" mentality, even though they could have easily traited them to be 'full' Primals within the old system just as they do now.

Everyone has their preferences, this is fine; but I don't think it's okay to keep ignoring all the times Summoning was more than just flashy aesthetic.

Even in iterations where summons acted like part members and were more present on the field, they were not always present nor were they something the summoner acted through by proxy. Old SMN was not a really good pet class anyway, it didn't offer real interaction with the pet it just allowed you to cast abilities from the pet. I tend to think of something like EverQuest magician as an actual pet class, where most of your damage was through your pet and your abilities centered around augmenting or drawing from them.

[ArcaneCarbuncle]

Even in iterations where summons acted like part members and were more present on the field, they were not always present nor were they something the summoner acted through by proxy. Old SMN was not a really good pet class anyway, it didn't offer real interaction with the pet it just allowed you to cast abilities from the pet. I tend to think of something like EverQuest magician as an actual pet class, where most of your damage was through your pet and your abilities centered around augmenting or drawing from them.

Jobs evolve over time and with the medium they're presented in, and old Summoner - conceptually at least - was a perfectly valid direction to take the Job in, especially for an MMO. Obviously the execution was a mess, and I don't think even the most staunch defenders will disagree there.

But that's not even my point, I simply take issue with people claiming that Summoners always just about big booms and fancy graphic, because that's plain and simply factually untrue.
What I want is nuanced discussion so the job can be better for everyone, reductive takes are not helpful.

Edit: Just to add this: If old Summoner is to be faulted for being a departure from the original concept, then the same thing is true for EW Summoner which takes easily as much from Spellblade as it does from its namesake.
(Not directed at the poster I'm quoting, just thought I'd add this here because I'm frankly tired of this discussion. I've said my piece, multiple times, I'm done with this discussion for like. the next year or so, lol)

[Atomos]

This has been pointed out at multiple points throughout this thread (and others) to be untrue; pretty much every main line game from FFX onwards (except XV) had some sort of Pet Job-esque gameplay, and the still managed to be flashy just fine. That's 20 years of History people keep ignoring.
Making Summoner a Pet job was perfectly valid based on the jobs history

I feel people tend to be too laser focused on the whole "Egi too smol" mentality, even though they could have easily traited them to be 'full' Primals within the old system just as they do now.

Everyone has their preferences, this is fine; but I don't think it's okay to keep ignoring all the times Summoning was more than just flashy aesthetic.

I mean the reason they changed smn was because of how much backlash they have gotten over the years from people wanting what we have currently. Seems like they catered to the majority, and now we have something we can call a proper FF summoner instead of the crappy looking egis and none-summoner abilities while being clunky af.

first and foremost the majority of FF games made summoner a flashy aesthetic and everything else an afterthought. people have nostalgia of those summons and summoners, and when you have all those games as reference but end up with whatever we had before 6.0 it just goes to show what the majority of players wanted and the devs graciously gave it to us.

I would have had no problem if they called the previous summoner anything other than. And the summons you mention in x,xii and xiii was really just adding onto the single player version of summons, they were still big and flashy and had big attacks that they performed. And there's still glamour if you want to change the carbuncle into something else.

[Hazama999]

I don't even play summoner, but reading to this thread, it's interesting how it all just boils down to "creature goes" or "creature stays for 20 or so seconds."

[Nizzi]

I've got SMN to level 90 and I think the level 90 Summons actually DO feel like Summons, so I'd say the job fantasy is done well in that regard. I really don't see why it takes until level 90 to get them outside of "we needed something cool for the capstone and we had no ideas" Personally I wish it had more summons, summoning the same 3 over and over again gets very boring quickly.