On Venat's Role in the Story

[MikkoAkure]

I don’t really get your logic here. You keep bringing up that it’s a video game character. So what? These are video game forums. These are lore forums to talk about said video game characters. It’s like you’re implying someone is lowly because they talk about video game characters.

I’m just tired because the same people who were saying that “Venat/Hydaelyn is a big meanie and the Ascians were right” before are still saying it now and Endwalker made everyone on both sides double-down on their opinion. No amount of “debate” is going to convince anyone here to change their mind so it just comes off as a rant post. Endwalker showing Venat’s side of things as promised by the writers couldn’t do that so I don’t think mutual randos on their internet can.

As expected, Veloran already dismissed my statements where I said he misunderstood the game so my going through the rest of his post is not worth my time and will not be constructive.

[Cleretic]

I’m just tired because the same people who were saying that “Venat/Hydaelyn is a big meanie and the Ascians were right” before are still saying it now and Endwalker made everyone on both sides double-down on their opinion. No amount of “debate” is going to convince anyone here to change their mind so it just comes off as a rant post. Endwalker showing Venat’s side of things as promised by the writers couldn’t do that so I don’t think mutual randos on their internet can.

As expected, Veloran already dismissed my statements where I said he misunderstood the game so my going through the rest of his post is not worth my time and will not be constructive.

For what little it's worth, while I am ultimately in the same position as I was before in going 'Hydaelyn ultimately made the right choice and the Ascians are ultimately terrible people', I have shifted considerably on where I stand within those points come Endwalker.

The post-Elpis Venat scene did a lot to reflect for me that the opposition to Venat had a real point, even if I disagreed with them. She did end a great civilization of caring people, even if they were on the road to destroying it by their own hands anyway.

And for the Ascians, I finally landed where I think Shadowbringers initially wanted me to, in considering them tragic, misguided figures who just want to go home, that chose to enact horrific crimes to do so. Sure, Emet-Selch was a jerk I don't want to talk to even back then, and he would go on to cause pretty much every problem and atrocity the post-Sundering Source has ever seen, but there was a time when he was a man with ultimately a good heart and intentions. He wasn't born a war criminal, he just became one.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I’m just tired because the same people who were saying that “Venat/Hydaelyn is a big meanie and the Ascians were right” before are still saying it now and Endwalker made everyone on both sides double-down on their opinion. No amount of “debate” is going to convince anyone here to change their mind so it just comes off as a rant post. Endwalker showing Venat’s side of things as promised by the writers couldn’t do that so I don’t think mutual randos on their internet can.

As expected, Veloran already dismissed my statements where I said he misunderstood the game so my going through the rest of his post is not worth my time and will not be constructive.

I mean, it’s perspective though. I think it’s fine for people to think one side is wrong etc etc. I do think, my bias against venat or hydaelyn aside, she was thrown a very big bone. Whether or not we were supposed to see her as not wholly good, is a bit undermined in the way they wrote it, where they write it in a way where it seems they very much even if it’s indirect, painted her as this benevolent person. Not only that but she got a loooot of attention, compare that to Elidibus or Zodiark. Both done with in the span of 10 minutes. At least Venat got an entire arc and then some dedicated to her. I do want to say too, they used the name Venat for a reason. Venat in FF12 was a god who thought she was doing what was best for herself and mankind, but instead ended up dooming them and her acts are very much seen as a not good thing.

[Theodric]

Most of it is a matter of perspective, at any rate. As an aside, I believe the argument from the mythical 'Zodiark Crowd' has always been that although it makes sense for the Sundered to not just roll over and die, it makes sense for the Unsundered to take the same path. Such as it often is when two opposing forces clash and common ground cannot be attained.

With the way in which the story was written, very few characters truly get a proper resolution because so many different elements could have been handled very differently.

To me, it's pretty clear that the writers are terrified of the idea of actually having meaningful stakes for the Scions and their ilk, so they simply force the tragic elements onto every other character and faction instead.

Ultimately the idea of 'moving on' and 'not bringing back the past' rings hollow to me when the Scions are laughably able to return from the dead with zero lasting complications...and it isn't the first time that it has happened in some cases, either. Y'shtola, obviously, being the most jarring example.

I think the worst part was that it was played completely straight. I don't know about anyone else, but I realised pretty quickly that they weren't actually dead so it just felt like pointless drama, baiting and rather narcissistic. The message may not have been intended, but it sure does feel like it was implying that other people should never try and bring back their loved ones even if they have the opportunity to do so...but it's perfectly fine for the 'heroes' to do just that. Then again, the story frequently flip flops between considering sacrificing one's life for a greater cause to be a good thing and a bad thing.

At the end of the day, though, I don't personally consider Venat to be a hero on any level. Others are free to think as much themselves, though the cynic in me suspects it was deliberately written this way in lieu of a proper conclusion so that heated debate could continue for as long as the game remains relevant. Unfortunately such tactics were exactly what turned me off of World of Warcraft's storytelling.

[MikkoAkure]

I do think, my bias against venat or hydaelyn aside, she was thrown a very big bone. Whether or not we were supposed to see her as not wholly good, is a bit undermined in the way they wrote it, where they write it in a way where it seems they very much even if it’s indirect, painted her as this benevolent person. Not only that but she got a loooot of attention, compare that to Elidibus or Zodiark. Both done with in the span of 10 minutes. At least Venat got an entire arc and then some dedicated to her.

From a meta perspective, we were always going to get more on Hydaelyn since she’s been the mysterious force that we’ve known about and been familiar with the longest. Usually in stories, the good guys are less interesting since they only exist to stop the bad guys. FFXIV was no different for a long time and fueled more to this in ShB when they added more explanation to the villain side of the story and I think that’s when a lot of people suddenly jumped on the “Emet is a soft boi who needs to be protected” train. Before that, the Ascians were mustache-twirling villains who literally say things like “we must needs destroy the Light and plunge the world into Darkness! Mwahahaha!”

What EW did was add more nuance to that and make it to be that Venat was more or less the plan maker the whole time and she’s not wholly benevolent since she created suffering (which we’ve known about since 1.0 beta from the song Answers). Now it feels like people are making Venat call-out posts like we’re on 2010 Tumblr.

The points I will concede to are:
1. The time travel was badly written and only Venat not losing her memory was a dumb idea since it ultimately changed nothing in my opinion and didn’t add to the story.

2. The explanation of the Blessing of Light didn’t make sense to me based on basically the entire game that came before it and unblessed people like Fordola being immune to tempering.

Where I feel like I disagree begins on the point of whether or not you think that the Ancients lived a “perfect” life and if you agree with the choices they made. The game spends some time hammering into your head that they weren’t ideal, which starts with the fact that they’re named after characters and places from a 500 year old book called “Utopia” which is itself arguably about how it’s not an ideal place. If after all of that, you think that the Ancients were right, then there’s no amount of discussion about everything that comes after that will convince you otherwise and you’re just searching for a reason to be upset that the writers didn’t agree with you and deliberately misunderstanding things to suit your opinion.

[Rulakir]

Where I feel like I disagree begins on the point of whether or not you think that the Ancients lived a “perfect” life and if you agree with the choices they made. The game spends some time hammering into your head that they weren’t ideal, which starts with the fact that they’re named after characters and places from a 500 year old book called “Utopia” which is itself arguably about how it’s not an ideal place. If after all of that, you think that the Ancients were right, then there’s no amount of discussion about everything that comes after that will convince you otherwise and you’re just searching for a reason to be upset that the writers didn’t agree with you and deliberately misunderstanding things to suit your opinion.

I don't agree with what 50% of modern day humanity does, so to me it seems odd to be so judgmental of a society that, by comparison, seems to be in a better place than we are.

I also don't believe the Ancients' civilization was close to a point of collapse nor do I believe a regression to one in which things like murder and sexual assault exist is in any way an 'upgrade'. What I wanted to see was the Ancients armed with the knowledge of the Final Days and working together to adjust and adapt to it. I didn't want Zodiark to have to be summoned or sacrifices to be made and I certainly didn't want their civilization destroyed.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip.

I mean i don’t see how these venat call-out posts are any different than when people made posts calling out emet selch or the ascians or zodiark’s, comparing their fans to Nazi’s, or calling zodiark a blood god etc etc. Just seems interesting it’s now an issue purely because it’s Venat. Again it’s why i raised a point before that i doubt so many people would like venat or even Meteion if they looked more like Emet or Varis lol. Yes they took inspiration from Utopia but it’s not a 100|100, it never is, even with their other inspirations like the name Venat or Zodiark etc. While they didn’t live a perfect life, because i don’t think that even exists, they were far closer to it than the sundered people and world is. The devs themselves have said time and time again the sundered vs unsundered argument is a matter of perspectives. Some will agree with the ascians and some wont. Also, i think saying the ascians before shb were mustache twirling villains is a bit disingenuous. They had fans far before that and it’s because there very obviously was more to it, all the way back in 2.x when Elidibus first made his appearance. Shb just spelled it all out for people who aren’t too keen on lore or don’t read into things. Irregardless though, they’ve gone back on their own themes time and time again and they did so yet again in EW in favor of the protags so it’s kind of hard to really gauge the story at this point. They just seem to write whatever makes the community happy and unfortunately that’s low stakes and convoluted mess that equals happy endings for the protags.

[TheRod]

This reminds me of Return of the Jedi, when some were really disappoint Luke didn't turn to the dark side, while promising that would not harm his friends - and George Lucas had to remember in an interview: "some people still need to understand: this is a fairytale, but in space". Famous words back then.

More or less, same applies here. Though, it wasn't like Yoshida himself didn't in prompto announce the story was going to play like that. From the very first announcement of Endwalker he was very open about it (and I suggest any reader glossing over this post to look for the announcement thread in this very same lore forums) - and to be honest and fair to him, it played exactly like he said it would. Ally that with most classical Final Fantasy themes and we have a very typical game of the series. Yes, some were a bit more grey or darker, but in general, the brand is like that, as we gotta concede.

Still, one lesson the Star Wars example also demonstrates is how we often may dive into mixing our favoritism for a character with being frustranted if they do not prosper - I love Darth Vader. Do I want him to win? No.

Sometimes it's difficult to deal with these aspects, especially in an era fandoms become even more estrident, and we nearly turn out into sports fan, faithfully wishing "our side" wins in the end. Alas, may we rest reminded of that for the future.

One thing as well is that it's always necessary to bring the perspective of the creator, the writer, etc... as we may discuss the characters in some sort of living beings when we need always to remember, they are not. It's always the sole intention of the creator behind the reasons for an action of a character. Even though it may be not satisfactory, it is what it is.

[KizuyaKatogami]

More or less, same applies here. Though, it wasn't like Yoshida himself didn't in prompto announce the story was going to play like that. From the very first announcement of Endwalker he was very open about it (and I suggest any reader glossing over this post to look for the announcement thread in this very same lore forums) - and to be honest and fair to him, it played exactly like he said it would. Ally that with most classical Final Fantasy themes and we have a very typical game of the series. Yes, some were a bit more grey or darker, but in general, the brand is like that, as we gotta concede.

Tbh a lot of what Yoshi says rings hollow to me because a lot of what he says nothing comes of it. He had stated numerous times during ShB(presumably in prep for EW) that “no one is safe, none of the scions are safe, just because they have quests locked behind them doesn’t mean they’re safe.” Yet….literally nothing came from that.

[SilverArrow20XX]

My take on the order of events is something like this.

Timeline
- Elpis events happen with no appearance by the WoL.
- History plays out until Mide travels back in time with Alexander.
- A new timeline is created, where the Hotgo tribe was founded by Mide, further in the past than it originally was.
- History is unchanged enough, so that the events leading to Mide time traveling still happen, and a stable loop is formed.
- History plays out through the 8th Umbral calamity. This timeline continues in "An Unpromised Tomorrow". (Or the version of this timeline where WoL visited Elpis)
- A new timeline is created, and the 8th Calamity is avoided.
- WoL travels back in time to Elpis, and uses that knowledge after returning to the present. The fate of this timeline is unknown. Meteion would not have Venat's tracker.
- A new timeline is created, in which the WoL visited Elpis.
- This timeline plays out almost the same as the original, and a stable time loop is formed.

This way, it allows for time travel rules to remain consistent, and it makes more sense.