On Venat's Role in the Story

[KizuyaKatogami]

Their suffering was extremely limited, with the more severe cases being shunted off and ignored. Erichthonios being thrown into Pandaemonium, and indeed the fact the Convocation would just destroy the place if they found out about what’s happening, is not exactly a great sign.

“No paradise is without its shadows” and all.

I don’t think we can just write off peoples suffering as “limited.” Seems a bit disingenuous to do so. We’re only there for a brief moment, so we don’t know exactly all that happened. We know however there were events like that volcano eruption, so clearly suffering wasn’t some unknown thing. And again, they used their suffering and turned it into something good. They fought through it. Yes, they stated they would destroy the place if they found out what happened because it was extremely dangerous. The same way say, we go and destroy the tycoon, because while it’s a useful tool, it’s extremely dangerous. If we’re going to start measuring suffering i dare say the ancients experienced the worst of it compared to people like the scions.

[EaraGrace]

I don’t think we can just write off peoples suffering as “limited.”

Normally I’d agree. But our visit to Elpis makes clear that the common sufferings of our lives are not at all common to the Ancients. They don’t want for food, face war or death, or seem to be left wanting for anything really. The few who do suffer largely fall to the margins unnoticed.

Seems a bit disingenuous to do so. We’re only there for a brief moment, so we don’t know exactly all that happened. We know however there were events like that volcano eruption, so clearly suffering wasn’t some unknown thing.

The volcano incident is a great example. In my mind there exist two possible interpretations, given we lack any real detail on it. In one, the Convocation largely abandoned a village of people to fend for themselves when ostensibly they could’ve intervened. In the other, the volcano never posed a threat to the inhabitants and thus the Convocation didn’t abandon anyone, but then that would mean it’s another example of how the Ancients never faced any real threat or strife. Either is not great imo.

And again, they used their suffering and turned it into something good. They fought through it. Yes, they stated they would destroy the place if they found out what happened because it was extremely dangerous. The same way say, we go and destroy the tycoon, because while it’s a useful tool, it’s extremely dangerous. If we’re going to start measuring suffering i dare say the ancients experienced the worst of it compared to people like the scions.

Well that creates an issue in my mind if that’s true. If the Ancient world was only marginally better than the Sundered one, then not only are the Unsundered terrible at describing their own civilization, but they also have little reason other than selfishness to want to see the Rejoining through. They couldn’t argue that life was perfect or so much more enjoyable, because it wouldn’t be right? If the Scions lived lives that were better than the Ancients then we’ll, the whole argument Emet gave in Shb kind of falls apart.

I’d also point out there’s nothing to indicate the Ancients longevity or creation magicks were hard fought, especially considering even children easily wield those powers.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Normally I’d agree. But our visit to Elpis makes clear that the common sufferings of our lives are not at all common to the Ancients. They don’t want for food, face war or death, or seem to be left wanting for anything really. The few who do suffer largely fall to the margins unnoticed.



The volcano incident is a great example. In my mind there exist two possible interpretations, given we lack any real detail on it. In one, the Convocation largely abandoned a village of people to fend for themselves when ostensibly they could’ve intervened. In the other, the volcano never posed a threat to the inhabitants and thus the Convocation didn’t abandon anyone, but then that would mean it’s another example of how the Ancients never faced any real threat or strife. Either is not great imo.



Well that creates an issue in my mind if that’s true. If the Ancient world was only marginally better than the Sundered one, then not only are the Unsundered terrible at describing their own civilization, but they also have little reason other than selfishness to want to see the Rejoining through. They couldn’t argue that life was perfect or so much more enjoyable, because it wouldn’t be right? If the Scions lived lives that were better than the Ancients then we’ll, the whole argument Emet gave in Shb kind of falls apart.

I’d also point out there’s nothing to indicate the Ancients longevity or creation magicks were hard fought, especially considering even children easily wield those powers.

When i say they fought through it i mean mainly the final days part, and them stopping it with Zodiark, a feat that even the wandering minstrel says himself required bravery and sacrifice and what have you. I’m not saying the ancient world was only marginally better. In the end i think it’s subjective whether people like it or not, personally from what i see both in game story wise and also from an outside pov i think it’s incredibly better. That’s not me saying it’s perfect or the best ever, but compared to the sundered world of countless war and strife and also shorter lifespans, hell ye i’d pick the unsundered world over that one. Also if i’m not mistaken in the volcano story, they sent Azem didn’t they? The way i saw it they didn’t want to interfere with the natural laws of things, and a volcanic eruption is a pretty natural phenomenon. They cared for the planet and didn’t want to affect it in crazy ways. Also tbf, we don’t know anything about their past. Who knows what they faced back then as well, perhaps it’s something that contributed to their “current” way of life, who can say. There are also other ancient civilizations afaik outside of elpis and amaurot.

[Dikatis]

Also if i’m not mistaken in the volcano story, they sent Azem didn’t they? The way i saw it they didn’t want to interfere with the natural laws of things, and a volcanic eruption is a pretty natural phenomenon. They cared for the planet and didn’t want to affect it in crazy ways. Also tbf, we don’t know anything about their past. Who knows what they faced back then as well, perhaps it’s something that contributed to their “current” way of life, who can say. There are also other ancient civilizations afaik outside of elpis and amaurot.

You are mistaken. Azem went on their own accord in defiance of the Convocation's ruling on the subject and has gotten censured repeatedly by their peers for doing so in the past. Elidibus implored Emet-Selch to speak up for Azem to prevent them from getting in trouble for their actions.

The island had one village upon it, and a wealth of fertile farmland─all of which would soon be lost. But that was simply the way of the world. As in many such cases, our role was merely to acknowledge the fact. The islanders would do the same, and those who deemed it prudent had likely already begun to move elsewhere. While it was true that the Convocation intended to discuss the matter, the conclusion would be no less inevitable.

But then why had Elidibus approached me?

"Well...Azem went there, and is resolved to stop the eruption."

...

"If things get out of hand, Azem could be censured again," and here the youth paused. "But I'm sure that won't happen. Not with your help."

My brow resumed its descent.

"...Very well. But are you certain it is wise for the emissary to ally himself with so divisive a figure?"

"Oh, I'm not," he replied with practiced deftness. "I'm simply giving Azem's opinion on the matter equal weight. The rest of the Fourteen have yet to reach a verdict, after all."

The unsundered world was a veritable paradise for the Amaurotines, but those who lived outside of the city still suffered life's troubles. In some cases, like this volcanic eruption, the majority of the Convocation was happy to debate and twiddle their thumbs while writing off natural disasters they could prevent as inevitable. Both Azem and Venat were explicitly renegades in their desire to constantly intervene in the affairs of others even at risk of defying the Convocation and getting punished for it.

Hades was also widely disliked before Azem guilt-tripped him into helping with problems all over the star, resulting in him getting an enormous boost in popularity and social standing that got Hades nominated for the position of Emet-Selch.

[KizuyaKatogami]

You are mistaken. Azem went on their own accord in defiance of the Convocation's ruling on the subject and has gotten censured repeatedly by their peers for doing so in the past. Elidibus implored Emet-Selch to speak up for Azem to prevent them from getting in trouble for their actions.



The unsundered world was a veritable paradise for the Amaurotines, but those who lived outside of the city still suffered life's troubles. In some cases, like this volcanic eruption, the majority of the Convocation was happy to debate and twiddle their thumbs while writing off natural disasters they could prevent as inevitable. Both Azem and Venat were explicitly renegades in their desire to constantly intervene in the affairs of others even at risk of defying the Convocation and getting punished for it.

Hades was also widely disliked before Azem guilt-tripped him into helping with problems all over the star, resulting in him getting an enormous boost in popularity and social standing that got Hades nominated for the position of Emet-Selch.

Could you link me a quote for that last bit that supports your claim? Because that sounds like nothing more than absolute headcanon. Also again, they were natural disasters, they didn’t want to interfere with them as they value the planets natural laws.

[Tehmon]

Could you link me a quote for that last bit that supports your claim? Because that sounds like nothing more than absolute headcanon. Also again, they were natural disasters, they didn’t want to interfere with them as they value the planets natural laws.

How very convenient that they had no issue rewriting the planets apparent natural laws when THEIR lives were threatened.

[KizuyaKatogami]

How very convenient that they had no issue rewriting the planets natural laws when THEIR lives were threatened.

It wasn’t just their lives threatened…did you play through ShB and EW? The planet’s very core was being threatened. They had no choice unless they just chose to let the star die and them along with it.Natural laws were gone as soon as the final days hit lol

[Dikatis]

Could you link me a quote for that last bit that supports your claim? Because that sounds like nothing more than absolute headcanon. Also again, they were natural disasters, they didn’t want to interfere with them as they value the planets natural laws.

Dude. I'm quoting the "Tales From the Shadows" story, Ere Our Curtain Falls.

As for the last bit, let's quote Hythlodaeus:

"Countless others vouched for his skill and character. People the world over, to whom he had previous lent a helping hand. Oh, how surprised he was. Claimed he hadn't done anything remarkable for anyone. Modest to a fault. He deserved every bit of acclaim he received. Yet it may have gone unappreciated if not for a mutual friend. A singular soul who can't help but involve himself/herself in the business of others. Where he/she walks, excitement is certain to follow. His/her antics irritate Emet-Selch to no end, but much of his grumbling stems from genuine concern. When our friend calls, he never fails to answer and lend his talents. And in the course of doing so, he himself came to be recognized and respected by those around him."

It's not that Hades is mean or evil, but he's such a grump that he only came to be recognized for his skills and inherently altruistic nature when Azem asked for his aid with all kinds of problems. But as Emet-Selch, he was happy to let a volcanic eruption he could help stop because it was "inevitable", requiring Azem to defy the Convocation to stop it.

As for the guilt-tripping part, Hythlodaeus more or less spells out to the WoL exactly how to implore Emet-Selch for aid in the same quest and pushes all of his buttons repeatedly throughout the Elpis storyline.

"Please, most benevolent Emet-Selch!"

[KizuyaKatogami]

Dude. I'm quoting the "Tales From the Shadows" story, Ere Our Curtain Falls.

As for the last bit, let's quote Hythlodaeus:



It's not that Hades is mean or evil, but he's such a grump that he only came to be recognized for his skills and inherently altruistic nature when Azem asked for his aid with all kinds of problems. But as Emet-Selch, he was happy to let a volcanic eruption he could help stop because it was "inevitable", requiring Azem to defy the Convocation to stop it.

As for the guilt-tripping part, Hythlodaeus more or less spells out to the WoL exactly how to implore Emet-Selch for aid in the same quest and pushes all of his buttons repeatedly throughout the Elpis storyline.

So....Dude, where does it say that Azem guilt-tripped him?Or that Hades was widely disliked?As far as i can see, theres more supporting he was already respected due to being a powerful sorcerer and his talent for drawing upon the underworld. Much in the same way Lahabrea is acclaimed for his strong creation magicks.

[PawPaw]

Dude. I'm quoting the "Tales From the Shadows" story, Ere Our Curtain Falls.

As for the last bit, let's quote Hythlodaeus:



It's not that Hades is mean or evil, but he's such a grump that he only came to be recognized for his skills and inherently altruistic nature when Azem asked for his aid with all kinds of problems. But as Emet-Selch, he was happy to let a volcanic eruption he could help stop because it was "inevitable", requiring Azem to defy the Convocation to stop it.

As for the guilt-tripping part, Hythlodaeus more or less spells out to the WoL exactly how to implore Emet-Selch for aid in the same quest and pushes all of his buttons repeatedly throughout the Elpis storyline.

"Please, most benevolent Emet-Selch!"

No part of that points to "Hades was also widely disliked before Azem guilt-tripped him into helping with problems all over the star, resulting in him getting an enormous boost in popularity and social standing that got Hades nominated for the position of Emet-Selch." being a reality. Please don't use your personal headcanon as reasoning. We are also told that Hythlodaeus is the one who recommended Hades to the seat of Emet-Selch because not only did he have exceptional sight, but was one of the most powerful mages alive. He was not scouted because of his "enormous boost in personality" after being terribly disliked for so long.