UNDERCUTTING....

[Matsume]

That is exactly what I said and why I linked that article. But it flew way over your head.

That's not at all "exactly what you said" Nowhere in any of your posts do you use "exactly" the same words in that order nor any phrase close. You said cartels are unsustainable and harmful to the economy so as to give credit to your undercutting antics. I said that uncountable harmful and unsustainable agents coexist with the economy and the fact that they are harmful and unsustainable does not prevent them from coexisting in the economy.

I don't think you still understand what a cartel is. When you have a bunch of people chiming in and saying that an item should be X price, and that people shouldn't undercut it, and blah blah, that's price fixing done by a group of producers. Also known as a cartel, or at least an attempted cartel.

No one saidany item "should be X price", nor is anyone attempting to convince others to cooperate for a server wide domination of any market. Not one person has tried to "fix the price" of anything. This thread started off with a simple complaint about how under cutters are starting to get annoying. Guess what? It's annoying. It's a fact. Get used to it. You don't think it's annoying because you benefit from it. Everyone can see that. Plain and simple. No cartels, no attempts.

And fyi, I wasn't the first one to bring up that word in this thread.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post682596

FYI, i replied to that post in depth. The OP himself admitted to the irony of his own post because he's got a degree in economics and leans towards Keynesian economics. Guess what? Keynesian economics supports government intervention to stabilize prices. GUESS WHAT? ITS NOT CALLED A CARTEL. Why would the government have used price control functions in a free economy during the Great Depression, WW2, post war reconstruction era, and during our current Global Economic Prices? Because Keynesian economics "argue that private sector decisions sometimes lead to inefficient macroeconomic outcomes.".

I guess that makes you, according to Keynes, part of the group of private sector decisions that sometimes lead to inefficient macroeconomic outcomes. Those against undercutting understand these negative consequences. You apparently don't give a rat's tail.

It's ironic that you would call me ignorant and claim that i didn't read your Wikipedia article on cartels whilst it would seem you didn't read half of his post nor the article he posted.

Then why did you bring up the mafia in your attempt to argue against me? What possible point could you have been trying to make with that? Can you elaborate?

Sure thing, I can elaborate. The point I was attempting to make is that there is a big difference between real world economics and a virtual economy. You can't call a few forum posters complaining about under cutters a cartel. Why? because cartels and the mafia are serious business. These posters have no resemblance to a cartel, you throw the word around nonchalantly to enforce your point of view and make it seem like anti-undercutting is a sin.

I bolded the completely ironic part in your argument there. I don't need them to quit the whole game to drive them out of business. When their item is no longer being sold on the market or they repurpose it, then I have effectively ran them out of business. They're not my competition anymore. If I decide to pull out of the market (i.e. stop selling my wares) and they come back, then whatever. That's how free markets work.

You are once again making the mistake of comparing a real world free market to an in game virtual economy. Nuff sed.

It's funny when people call me a troll with "intellectually sounding" arguments, because I'm direct, blunt, and not ashamed of calling people out on bulls**t. I guess Googling results, fully reading through topics, and posting articles that support my claims makes me a passive-aggressive troll that only sounds intellectual.

Hey, may I direct you to another Wikipedia article? It's called the ad hominem attack.

"short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it"

...you called me a cartel member attempting to fix prices on a server, i ask you to QUOTE ME on my attempt to do so and call you a liar for putting words in my mouth, to which you reply with "i don't think you still understand what a cartel is" which seems to me like you are attempting to "negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it".

Did you post that so as to enforce for my point, or make yourself look like an idiot?

[Geo]

Holy troll thread

[Themule]

lol, i say i'm annoyed with undercutting and suddenly everyone has a phd in economics. fix UI, punish botters, geeze guys, does anyone really disagree with this?! Mass undercutting is just a symptom...we all want this game to be as good as it can be. i dont want to tell new players to just "deal with it" if the system can be improved...
and right now there are very clear things leading to mass undercutting that can easily be improved...

ps. if this economy crashes, ffxiv ends, its pretty simple and VERY non-realworld. this game will not survive an economic crisis in its current state. 2.0 has to be polished or its over...period.

[Mortikhan]

1) People wanted an AH. They got one. Congrats.

2) Crafting and Gathering have both gotten easier since the beginning of the game. Especially since last patch. Expect a lot more competition for NQ items and a moderate increase in the amount of competition for HQ stuff.

3) Botting is not the reason why prices are going down. Botting has always been around. The economy is falling out because any numb-nut monkey with some time can craft now. Thank SE for that.

4) HQ class specific items will fall in price over the next few months as well. It is the nature of the beast. When something first comes out it gets exploited till the market is saturated and it is not worth the trouble to make any more. buyers know this and wait for a better price. They are just letting the MWs take their natural course. Market bulls stay ahead of that curve and exploit it as much as possible.

5) Undercutting is a way to make quick easy gil. Even if only by 1 gill. Wait it out and wait for the demand to exceed the supply or compete for buyers.

6) If you think that producing HQ items is very hard then you are wrong. It is slightly difficult at best. No real decision making or risk is made for crafting anymore. All you really have to decide on is weather to take the risk to HQ or just complete the item. If you are having trouble popping out finished products then you need to farm more, get better crafting gear, read the crafting forums here and/or do some research into HQing since 1.22.

7) People are not obsessed with HQ in FFXIV...not like FFXI. This is because crafting is (more so than ever after 1.22) much easier to do and more people leveled their crafts earlier on. This situation will probably not change in the MWs until a level increase comes out or they offer a specialization option for crafting classes.

[Matsume]

7) People are not obsessed with HQ in FFXIV...not like FFXI. This is because crafting is (more so than ever after 1.22) much easier to do and more people leveled their crafts earlier on. This situation will probably not change in the MWs until a level increase comes out or they offer a specialization option for crafting classes.

It is also because stats are relatively worthless other than main hand damage (ifrit in reindeer outfits?) and because of PLing. You can PL to 50 in a day, why would you need HQ gear before lvl 50? Hell, why would you need ANY gear before lvl 50 if you PL? Hell, you don't even need to PL to avoid getting gear because stats are relatively worthless to begin with and lvling is so easy. I got my whm and blm to 50 without having to buy new gear more than twice on the way up. What's up with that?

[Maxthunder]

...is getting really annoying.

Im sorry you feel that way but... as I farm all my stuff I can undercut as much as I want because I dont pay for the materials. If you want to make a profit it isnt about how much you can sell it for its about how much the materials cost you. So if you are buying your materials than you wont make a profit unless you price high. Yet those players that farm theor own materials will always profit in the end as there is no addition cost for them.

[Themule]

Im sorry you feel that way but... as I farm all my stuff I can undercut as much as I want because I dont pay for the materials. If you want to make a profit it isnt about how much you can sell it for its about how much the materials cost you. So if you are buying your materials than you wont make a profit unless you price high. Yet those players that farm theor own materials will always profit in the end as there is no addition cost for them.

lol, you havn't read this thread have you? ;-) its not hard to make money in this game and that is not the point. high five though.

[Achtzen]

1) People wanted an AH. They got one. Congrats.

Having either an AH or Market wards isn't going to change or stop people from competing/"undercutting" prices. I don't see a any problem from the current system aside the inability to selectively/filter search for either +1 or normal goods.

6) If you think that producing HQ items is very hard then you are wrong. It is slightly difficult at best. No real decision making or risk is made for crafting anymore. All you really have to decide on is weather to take the risk to HQ or just complete the item. If you are having trouble popping out finished products then you need to farm more, get better crafting gear, read the crafting forums here and/or do some research into HQing since 1.22.

Easier to craft HQ gear yes. But the availability of HQ materials and how many beneficial materia are melded is where the greatest risk is and it significantly affect its final selling price. That is where the money lies regardless of the number of crafters in game. Greater risks reap greater rewards. You can name your price on that regardless of what the current market is for that item.

Sadly you don't see a lot of this anyway as crafter's tend to produce the HQ item without attachments and don't risk any loss and just sell it and leave it to the buyer to take the risk afterwards.

The risk is there, people don't tend to take it and take the loss.

[Petdo]

I saw some greedy GSM selling something for 100k... but the cost of making it just only 20k or less if you farm item yourself.
So and try to stay close to their price by set it to 99,999 gil and go to bed.

Next morning I login and check my items all of them still here and that guy cut the price for 1 gil again!
The battle keep on like this for 1-2 days and the 3rd day I can't stand with this idiot anymore so i cut the price by half to 49k... and he didnt follow, and I can sell all my stuffs :P

I think it's not only for cutter... it demand and supply.
If you set price too high, no one willing to buy that piece of crap.
If you set too low, you have low profit.
If you not greedy and set reasonable margin, ppl will buy it and when they buy all from me, the next guys that price higher than me will have a chance to sell their item too!

The guy I mentioned I think he check the price of his item and adjust it more than 5 times a day =='

[Mortikhan]

It is also because stats are relatively worthless other than main hand damage (ifrit in reindeer outfits?) and because of PLing. You can PL to 50 in a day, why would you need HQ gear before lvl 50? Hell, why would you need ANY gear before lvl 50 if you PL? Hell, you don't even need to PL to avoid getting gear because stats are relatively worthless to begin with and lvling is so easy. I got my whm and blm to 50 without having to buy new gear more than twice on the way up. What's up with that?

Plenty of factors contribute to it and have since the game started. I was more referring to the recent affects on the MWs. Leveling and PLing has been around for quite awhile now also. With the ability to gain levels and have instant guaranteed success at crafting to level my point was about people not paying much higher prices for something when they can simply level it on their own. Would that take time? Sure, but not nearly as much as before 1.22. The synth system is much easier to have more control over success and failure now and even one crafting class leveled to 45 or multiple at 30 can now boost your effective leveling capabilities 10 fold with the other ones and remainder of the current ones. Boosting quality is easy for XP. Success is a forgone conclusion except at the very beginning when you start leveling any crafting. All those who were not willing to go beyond 45 are enticed to do so now and that would take less than a few days if properly motivated.

What does that net? A bunch of people who never bothered with crafting or were not using it as a source of income now flooding the market with massive amounts of raw materials, base materials and finished products. They still don't see it as their main source of income so they don't bother trying to compete over price or even keep the price within range. They still have their other means of making gil so if they sell low or don't sell at all is really irrelevant. The bottom line is they don't need the crafters for anything anymore. Now they don't have to pay big money. They just make the NQ version and wait for the market to flood with HQ versions and get one at a much lower price.