UNDERCUTTING....

[DarkDepravity]

You do realise that the kind of price fixing (cartel) a lot of you are describing in wanting stable prices is forbidden in most civilized countries outside of "special" circumstances with regards to the consumer markets?

Not to mention, you're looking only at the gatherer/crafter side of things, the part of the game population that isn't enjoying that part, can't as easily burn through gil as those of us who craft/gather, and artificially high-kept prices would make it harder for them to get in. It would certainly suck for those who might pick up the game post 2.0 (assuming any do), and want to roll on an established server if prices were artifically kept high. Of course, you could argue that they can get into crafting/gathering as well, which they could do, which would make it even harder for you to make money.

You want more money for your stuff? differentiate your merchandise, make HQs, materia multimelds, make something that makes YOUR stuff worth more than everyone else.

This is how the market works, the buyers will go for the ones who sell the cheapest, or the best, or the ones that they like (branding). You can go Harrods, you can go Walmart, or you can look for niches or something in between.

And yes, I DO actually have a degree in economy, and I DO have bot/min 50, along with several crafts.
(although I must admit, I do lean towards Keynesian economics, which to a certain extent invalidates my entire argument :P)


edit: I fully agree on measurements needed to deal with botting though, but that's not what the topic title talks about!

[Matsume]

You do realise that the kind of price fixing (cartel) a lot of you are describing in wanting stable prices is forbidden in most civilized countries outside of "special" circumstances with regards to the consumer markets?

Not to mention, you're looking only at the gatherer/crafter side of things, the part of the game population that isn't enjoying that part, can't as easily burn through gil as those of us who craft/gather, and artificially high-kept prices would make it harder for them to get in. It would certainly suck for those who might pick up the game post 2.0 (assuming any do), and want to roll on an established server if prices were artifically kept high. Of course, you could argue that they can get into crafting/gathering as well, which they could do, which would make it even harder for you to make money.

You want more money for your stuff? differentiate your merchandise, make HQs, materia multimelds, make something that makes YOUR stuff worth more than everyone else.

This is how the market works, the buyers will go for the ones who sell the cheapest, or the best, or the ones that they like (branding). You can go Harrods, you can go Walmart, or you can look for niches or something in between.

And yes, I DO actually have a degree in economy, and I DO have bot/min 50, along with several crafts.
(although I must admit, I do lean towards Keynesian economics, which to a certain extent invalidates my entire argument :P)


edit: I fully agree on measurements needed to deal with botting though, but that's not what the topic title talks about!

This is the greatest part of your post, you admit to the irony and in a sense invalidate what you just have said.

I'll spare you the leson in economics but for the sake of others reading, Keynesian Economics supports the idea of government intervention to stabilize the prices of certain goods and services that can lead to innefficient macroeconomic outcomes. And the fact that Keynesian economics was the standard economic model during the latter part of the Great Depression, World War II, Post War Economic Expansion and our current Global Financial Crisis makes eroneous your statement that "stable prices is forbidden in most civilzed countries"

Hell, China abuses Free Trade by artifically undervaluing the Yuan so as to increase exports by dereasing the price of their products relative to other countries.

But let's not get into that...

agro mobs at gathering points wont stop the new hack/bot ive seen people using lately

one that lets them gather the same node over and over again til it despawns

theyd only need find that 1 noed that isnt in agro range, and refind it every hour or so

and putting agro mobs at EVERY node would just annoy all crafters too much

I hope you're kidding...

I haven't yet seen this bot, and was simply surprised by the gathering bots however innefficient they may be. If this truly is the case I wouldn't be surprised to see teleport bots coupled with this mining hack that just teleports players to a new node then mines til it's done...

[VytasBismarck]

Am i the only one who thinks that this thread wouldn't exist if people would have a basic understanding of whats going on in the markets?

/facepalm

[TheVedis]

Am i the only one who thinks that this thread wouldn't exist if people would have a basic understanding of whats going on in the markets?

/facepalm

i personaly love the expert opiions coming in of people who dont craft or gather who think they know whats going on

[Darkillumina]

i personaly love the expert opiions coming in of people who dont craft or gather who think they know whats going on

Apparently in their world we just fire out finished products whenever we want with impunity. If it worked like that I would be a lot closer to my luminary hammer.
I explained how the darksteel stuff works a few pages back and nobody commented on it. More than likely because its correct.

Wolfie I will say this because I don't feel like deconstructing your pretentious posts. You're not Gordan Gekko, your're not putting people out of business because they are not quitting the game because you undercut them. They are simply taking their product saving it for later or using it for something else.

P.S. Wolfie's game revolves around trying to build intellectually sounding arguments while putting down the validity of others ideas in a passive-aggressive way. Don't fall for the troll folks. Good show though, you put a lot of effort into your rants.

[Matsume]

Apparently in their world we just fire out finished products whenever we want with impunity. If it worked like that I would be a lot closer to my luminary hammer.
I explained how the darksteel stuff works a few pages back and nobody commented on it. More than likely because its correct.

Wolfie I will say this because I don't feel like deconstructing your pretentious posts. You're not Gordan Gekko, your're not putting people out of business because they are not quitting the game because you undercut them. They are simply taking their product saving it for later or using it for something else.

P.S. Wolfie's game revolves around trying to build intellectually sounding arguments while putting down the validity of others ideas in a passive-aggressive way. Don't fall for the troll folks. Good show though, you put a lot of effort into your rants.

You forgot blatant lies, and putting words in other peoples mouth.

[Wolfie]

There are uncountable unsustainable and harmful agents to the economy, that doesn't stop them from existing.

That is exactly what I said and why I linked that article. But it flew way over your head.

Matter of fact you are the ignorant being who wrongfully claims that the anti-undercutters in this thread are attempting to form a cartel. you are the first person to throw the word around like a ragdoll so as to enforce your sense of justice. what's really happening is a bunch of ppl QQ because they are getting undercut, and are asking for the love of the twelve why the undercutters don't just chill out, to which you reply OMG CARTEL

I don't think you still understand what a cartel is. When you have a bunch of people chiming in and saying that an item should be X price, and that people shouldn't undercut it, and blah blah, that's price fixing done by a group of producers. Also known as a cartel, or at least an attempted cartel.

And fyi, I wasn't the first one to bring up that word in this thread.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post682596

where did i draw the conclusion that FFXIV cartels are completely unsustainable? actually, i believe the RMT markets are completely sustainable and have in a sure fire manner monopolized certain items. thanks for confirming to me that there is no mafia in FFXIV, i did not already know this. oh if you don't mind quoting where i attempt to set up a price fixing scheme, that would be nice.

thanks for putting words in my mouth you useless brony.

Then why did you bring up the mafia in your attempt to argue against me? What possible point could you have been trying to make with that? Can you elaborate?

Wolfie I will say this because I don't feel like deconstructing your pretentious posts. You're not Gordan Gekko, your're not putting people out of business because they are not quitting the game because you undercut them. They are simply taking their product saving it for later or using it for something else.

I bolded the completely ironic part in your argument there. I don't need them to quit the whole game to drive them out of business. When their item is no longer being sold on the market or they repurpose it, then I have effectively ran them out of business. They're not my competition anymore. If I decide to pull out of the market (i.e. stop selling my wares) and they come back, then whatever. That's how free markets work.

P.S. Wolfie's game revolves around trying to build intellectually sounding arguments while putting down the validity of others ideas in a passive-aggressive way. Don't fall for the troll folks. Good show though, you put a lot of effort into your rants.

It's funny when people call me a troll with "intellectually sounding" arguments, because I'm direct, blunt, and not ashamed of calling people out on bulls**t. I guess Googling results, fully reading through topics, and posting articles that support my claims makes me a passive-aggressive troll that only sounds intellectual.

Hey, may I direct you to another Wikipedia article? It's called the ad hominem attack.

[Matsume]

That is exactly what I said and why I linked that article. But it flew way over your head.

That's not at all "exactly what you said" Nowhere in any of your posts do you use "exactly" the same words in that order nor any phrase close. You said cartels are unsustainable and harmful to the economy so as to give credit to your undercutting antics. I said that uncountable harmful and unsustainable agents coexist with the economy and the fact that they are harmful and unsustainable does not prevent them from coexisting in the economy.

I don't think you still understand what a cartel is. When you have a bunch of people chiming in and saying that an item should be X price, and that people shouldn't undercut it, and blah blah, that's price fixing done by a group of producers. Also known as a cartel, or at least an attempted cartel.

No one saidany item "should be X price", nor is anyone attempting to convince others to cooperate for a server wide domination of any market. Not one person has tried to "fix the price" of anything. This thread started off with a simple complaint about how under cutters are starting to get annoying. Guess what? It's annoying. It's a fact. Get used to it. You don't think it's annoying because you benefit from it. Everyone can see that. Plain and simple. No cartels, no attempts.

And fyi, I wasn't the first one to bring up that word in this thread.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post682596

FYI, i replied to that post in depth. The OP himself admitted to the irony of his own post because he's got a degree in economics and leans towards Keynesian economics. Guess what? Keynesian economics supports government intervention to stabilize prices. GUESS WHAT? ITS NOT CALLED A CARTEL. Why would the government have used price control functions in a free economy during the Great Depression, WW2, post war reconstruction era, and during our current Global Economic Prices? Because Keynesian economics "argue that private sector decisions sometimes lead to inefficient macroeconomic outcomes.".

I guess that makes you, according to Keynes, part of the group of private sector decisions that sometimes lead to inefficient macroeconomic outcomes. Those against undercutting understand these negative consequences. You apparently don't give a rat's tail.

It's ironic that you would call me ignorant and claim that i didn't read your Wikipedia article on cartels whilst it would seem you didn't read half of his post nor the article he posted.

Then why did you bring up the mafia in your attempt to argue against me? What possible point could you have been trying to make with that? Can you elaborate?

Sure thing, I can elaborate. The point I was attempting to make is that there is a big difference between real world economics and a virtual economy. You can't call a few forum posters complaining about under cutters a cartel. Why? because cartels and the mafia are serious business. These posters have no resemblance to a cartel, you throw the word around nonchalantly to enforce your point of view and make it seem like anti-undercutting is a sin.

I bolded the completely ironic part in your argument there. I don't need them to quit the whole game to drive them out of business. When their item is no longer being sold on the market or they repurpose it, then I have effectively ran them out of business. They're not my competition anymore. If I decide to pull out of the market (i.e. stop selling my wares) and they come back, then whatever. That's how free markets work.

You are once again making the mistake of comparing a real world free market to an in game virtual economy. Nuff sed.

It's funny when people call me a troll with "intellectually sounding" arguments, because I'm direct, blunt, and not ashamed of calling people out on bulls**t. I guess Googling results, fully reading through topics, and posting articles that support my claims makes me a passive-aggressive troll that only sounds intellectual.

Hey, may I direct you to another Wikipedia article? It's called the ad hominem attack.

"short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it"

...you called me a cartel member attempting to fix prices on a server, i ask you to QUOTE ME on my attempt to do so and call you a liar for putting words in my mouth, to which you reply with "i don't think you still understand what a cartel is" which seems to me like you are attempting to "negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it".

Did you post that so as to enforce for my point, or make yourself look like an idiot?

[Darkillumina]

That is exactly what I said and why I linked that article. But it flew way over your head.



I don't think you still understand what a cartel is. When you have a bunch of people chiming in and saying that an item should be X price, and that people shouldn't undercut it, and blah blah, that's price fixing done by a group of producers. Also known as a cartel, or at least an attempted cartel.

And fyi, I wasn't the first one to bring up that word in this thread.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post682596




Then why did you bring up the mafia in your attempt to argue against me? What possible point could you have been trying to make with that? Can you elaborate?



I bolded the completely ironic part in your argument there. I don't need them to quit the whole game to drive them out of business. When their item is no longer being sold on the market or they repurpose it, then I have effectively ran them out of business. They're not my competition anymore. If I decide to pull out of the market (i.e. stop selling my wares) and they come back, then whatever. That's how free markets work.



It's funny when people call me a troll with "intellectually sounding" arguments, because I'm direct, blunt, and not ashamed of calling people out on bulls**t. I guess Googling results, fully reading through topics, and posting articles that support my claims makes me a passive-aggressive troll that only sounds intellectual.

Hey, may I direct you to another Wikipedia article? It's called the ad hominem attack.

Hmm, is somebody typing something? Must be my imagination.

[Firon]

lol you guys gonna be in for a world of hurt when 2.0 hits and its like 2-3k more crafters on your server and everything is under priced cause its so much of it