[Suggestion] Time for a native mac client

[Johners]

I'd quite like to see a proper macOS native client at some point in the future. Not that I've got any intention on playing the game on macOS, despite owning a 2021 MacBook Pro with M1 Pro myself, but simply because Apple are transitioning away from x86. Looking back at the transition from PowerPC to x86 in the early 2000s, the compatibility layer Apple implemented in Mac OS X to ensure application compatibility was only supported for 2-3 years and was then dropped from the operating system entirely.

Sure, you could not update your OS on an existing M1 Mac but eventually Apple will release Macs with a new enough OS that won't include the x86 compatibility layer. The games industry has been particularly slow to support M1 Macs for some reason but you also had Blizzard that released an M1 compatible WoW client very early on into the lifecycle of the first M1 laptops.

It shouldn't cost dev time for other content either because different people are qualified/employed to do different things. An artist isn't also a programmer and vice versa.

[_Pigzig]

I would definitely like a better ver. for Mac even if we don't get a native. Right now it is running in Wine, surely there's something better we can do, even if it doesn't require a full rewrite of the code.

Looking back at the transition from PowerPC to x86 in the early 2000s, the compatibility layer Apple implemented in Mac OS X to ensure application compatibility was only supported for 2-3 years and was then dropped from the operating system entirely. .

I don't think they will drop it the same way. Currently it's straight up emulation through Rosetta, right? There's nothing lost by keeping the code there. It's nothing like the headphone jack on iPhones it's just a computer program. Dunno what happened with PowerPC to x86.

Also OP turn down water reflections and SSAO off. I play on 1080p and it is 60fps a lot of the time, only there are a lot of players running around now in cities at the moment dropping it to 40-50.

[Defmetal]

They sell new copies of the game continuously for Mac, and just released an expansion for it. So they are making money. If they did go make it a native app, they could even put it in the app store furthering distribution. (Mac App Store charges same fees as Steam). Yes development costs time and money, but Square already partners with apple, they already have lots of Mac and iOS developers if you haven't seen their GACHA department. It could easily be one of the top apple purchases and a solid money maker, if they didn't treat it like something they regret announcing. At the moment the Mac client feels like well, the ps3 client.

[Eriane_Elis]

You can easily install windows 10 on your apple computer and get better framerate. The thing is, you won't because you decided at some point in your life that you don't like Microsoft products which is a fine position to take and I understand that. Unfortunately for you, games are difficult to build and terribly hard to port over to another OS especially if that OS does not support the majority of the things you need to be done. For instance, Mac doesn't support Direct X and that's a critical component for FF to run. That's why FF14 is running on an emulator and you get less FPS. It would take an enormous amount of funds for a very small amount of people. They would essentially lose money.

[savageink]

You can easily install windows 10 on your apple computer and get better framerate. The thing is, you won't because you decided at some point in your life that you don't like Microsoft products which is a fine position to take and I understand that. Unfortunately for you, games are difficult to build and terribly hard to port over to another OS especially if that OS does not support the majority of the things you need to be done. For instance, Mac doesn't support Direct X and that's a critical component for FF to run. That's why FF14 is running on an emulator and you get less FPS. It would take an enormous amount of funds for a very small amount of people. They would essentially lose money.

almost everything you said is incorrect, and made up of assumptions about mac users. congratulations.

[Defmetal]

You can easily install windows 10 on your apple computer and get better framerate. The thing is, you won't because you decided at some point in your life that you don't like Microsoft products which is a fine position to take and I understand that. Unfortunately for you, games are difficult to build and terribly hard to port over to another OS especially if that OS does not support the majority of the things you need to be done. For instance, Mac doesn't support Direct X and that's a critical component for FF to run. That's why FF14 is running on an emulator and you get less FPS. It would take an enormous amount of funds for a very small amount of people. They would essentially lose money.

You can no longer install windows on macs as of the upgrade to the m1. M1 is ARM based and Windows ARM does not install on it yet. Maybe someday, not today. M1 is also the same processor in the ipad, which as stated, would make porting the game over to mobile incredible easy for them should they make a native mac client.

[Packetdancer]

Square can always outsource it to another company or division, for money obviously.

They already do; the existing Mac version is handled by Codeweavers, not internally at Square-Enix.

It runs through Emulation called Rosetta, which is itself emulating Windows. Making a native mac app would open a lot of doors for future uses. Such as when apple discards rosetta entirely. It's gonna happen someday.

This is a really minor point in terminology, but extremely important in implementation: WINE does not emulate Windows. (In fact, if I recall correctly "WINE" originally stood for "Wine is Not an Emulator".) It is a translation layer.

Emulating a thing means you create a virtual system within which the thing runs; you would, functionally, install Windows into a container. A translation layer runs the thing natively, but provides stubbed libraries that translate the calls; the Windows client runs, but where it might expect "library A" on Windows, it can load the same 'library' in WINE... and that library just has code that's like, "Okay, and this is how we do it on this system." Hence why WINE does not actually require a copy of Windows to function.

Rosetta 2 (the thing that lets you run Intel code on the ARM M1) is also not an emulator, as an interesting point. It actually analyzes the entire program and compiles an ARM equivalent ahead of time, then caches that; when you run an Intel program on an M1 Mac, it takes a lot longer to start the first time (because it's analyzing the program and creating an ARM equivalent) and then is much faster on successive launches (until the application changes and it must make a new ARM binary).

However, this makes for a truly bonkers number of translation layers involved in the Mac client on M1.

You're running Windows code via dummy libraries that translate the calls into MacOS equivalents, which itself is being done from an ARM binary generated automatically by effectively decompiling an Intel program and recompiling it for ARM. In addition, that program is making calls to DirectX which (via DXVK) are being translated into Vulkan equivalents, which (via MoltenVK) are being translated into the equivalent graphics calls in Apple's "Metal" graphics API.

It's honestly sort of dizzying... and impressive that it works as well as it does.

A native application would work considerably better, though, you're not wrong.

[Defmetal]

Square should evaluate the demand for it, though not using existing sales. Using existing sales is well, "The mac client doesn't work very well so people don't buy it or play on macs. People don't play on macs so we shouldn't build a native app".

[_Pigzig]

Does anyone know how hard it would be to do a native client? Cause WoW did it.
This game was pumped out fast after 1.0s failure and seems to be designed to be ported to many systems, I feel like it wouldn't be too hard but I don't have any programming knowledge.