Endwalker was "meh" (for reasons other than technical issues)

[BrokentoothMarch]

Hmmm no... I think for example the poster here was making some very good points and he certainly paid a lot of attention to the story...

Honestly with how much that thread answers and expresses most my problems paired with my own clearly degenerating ability to convey myself, I'll also start just referring people to that post. It exposes a lot of problems that are hard to refute.

I will, however, take the opportunity to say this to everyone who may truly adore this story: You're allowed to. To like a story that may have flaws does not inherently devalue it in your eyes and neither should it. The problem comes when it is championed out as literary perfection that must be accepted by everyone else. This story has it's admirers and it's malcontents, something that's reflected in every piece of media in the world. It's with this message that I hope it becomes clear that we're picking apart a story we do not like, but WANT to like. It's because we're invested that we put so much time into this. It is not because we hate Final Fantasy, the lore, or those who like it.

Once again though, I do take umbrage with those who resort to strawmans or character assassinations because they simply can't fathom someone might not like something they like. It's childish and I will own up to the fact that I've gotten heated in a few of my posts which is just as childish as well. I apologize for that, especially in my latest post towards Hayk which reads both barely coherent and aggressive. I still vehemently disagree with his notions, mind, but I'll be hoping to eventually post something a bit more substantial when it's not 5AM and I'm in some insomnia-induced delirium.

[YukikoKurosawa]

*snip*

Because a lot of the complains have already been answered and boil down to people just not paying attention and getting confused and saying "this makes no sense", or they're missing the forest for the trees, fixated on one detail while failing to examine the whole, or failing to suspend their disbelief at all.

Like on an earlier page I read "Is it REALLY that easy to go to the moon now? That's pretty stupid". You only go to the moon because the Telephoroi were a garlean constructed transporter (as I recall based on Allagan technology), after using the aether harnessed from the towers that were harvesting aether from all over the world to channel into a super powered energy blast to destroy the seal of Zodiark's prison (which wasn't even enough hence why Zenos and Fandango go there and we chase after them). The way the poster frames it it's as if they think everyone on the planet just had moon teleporters in their backyard, as if we just had those all along and never used them and that would've been awfully convenient.

Or someone criticizing the story because "this one random side character I played the game to see was barely in it".

These aren't serious complaints. These are, at best, entirely subjective. At worst, the result of not paying full attention. This is the result of not being able to properly examine a story as it's whole and instead fixating on insignificant parts, and failing at that because you aren't paying attention when the story is actually answering your own questions. Many of these complains border on "Why didn't they just fly to Mordor?" level. There are times when someone like, say a plot hole (an actual one) can destroy an entire story (See: "There must always be a Lich King"), and there are also times when what you're complaining about literally doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Though I will agree on pacing to some degree, I did feel like there was unneeded fluff at times. The "take the loporitts on a tour" in Labrynthos quests could have been completely removed save for the Urianger scene and nothing of value would lost. It was really dumb and broke the flow of the story at that point. Especially with the serious, urgent music playing while I go show a group of tiny rabbit people around on a little tour. They do seriously need to stop adding these quests to the MSQ that the writers themselves acknowledge as chores every single time. With a story as long as Endwalker, fluff is seriously unnecessary.

[BrokentoothMarch]

See? Now this, I can work with. This is an honest exposure of your opinions that can be discussed as opposed to a callous remark. Do you need to dump your opinion out at every opportunity? Of course not. But if you don't intend to, it's probably wise not to make a snide remark either. Now onwards before I pass out:

Like on an earlier page I read "Is it REALLY that easy to go to the moon now? That's pretty stupid". You only go to the moon because the Telephoroi were a garlean constructed transporter (as I recall based on Allagan technology), after using the aether harnessed from the towers that were harvesting aether from all over the world to channel into a super powered energy blast to destroy the seal of Zodiark's prison (which wasn't even enough hence why Zenos and Fandango go there and we chase after them).

The technology existing is fine, despite the qualms I'll have about it's physical representation being so underwhelming. That, however, is aesthetic taste that is 100% subjective. The biggest issue that rung to me was the fact that the aether that supposedly was used to power the teleporter was completely drained just previous in the same scene in order to shatter the keys that kept Zodiark in check. Failing to break the last one with the very blatant remark that the aether had been depleted. Considering that the trek between earth and moon, regardless of technological efficiency, is certainly no small feat, I struggle to believe there was still enough for him and Zenos to be sent to it's surface. That's not even mentioning that we were sent up there as well. Whether I misunderstood the scene and mayhaps it uses the aether of the individual which would explain the WoL and Co. heading up there would justify that latter bit, but Zenos being Garlean and therefor unable to process Aether and Fandaniel stating that there was none, potentially implying the machine, himself, or both are out, made the whole thing make little sense.

Also, well, the fact that the ability to travel to the moon was taken in such stride by the protagonists. The possibility of reaching the moon was never something that bothered me, instead it's presentation. Considering it's an otherwise unheard-of ability, going so far as to require Allagan technology that was up-to-recently undiscovered to anyone that wasn't Allagan or Garlean, I expected a little more than the company going back home to enjoy a meal and discussion about how they're going to use this completely staggeringly alien technology which was only known to Fandanial because of his Allagan privy as I believe these were his designs as offered to the Empire.

Or someone criticizing the story because "this one random side character I played the game to see was barely in it".

My hostility to fandom-driven enthusiasm is becoming well-documented. I agree completely with you that hating a story because it doesn't show your favorite character in the limelight is a piss poor justification. (Though I will say, with the disclosure that I don't care for her, Y'shtola did seem strangely absent. I only noticed this well after completing the story, however, so it couldn't have bothered me that much).

These aren't serious complaints. These are, at best, entirely subjective. At worst, the result of not paying full attention. This is the result of not being able to properly examine a story as it's whole and instead fixating on insignificant parts, and failing at that because you aren't paying attention when the story is actually answering your own questions.

To pretend that every argument attacking the story is just and correct would be a move of absolute insanity to me. There are PLENTY of people who dislike the story for all the wrong reasons. There are many people who share my distaste for Endwalker, only to detail things that I believe have nothing to do with anything concerning it's quality. (Thinking Thaivnir wasn't "required" for the story is not a negative. This is not a book. Having further expansions on existing countries to play in is more than welcome). With this, I can offer you an olive branch. It seems to me that you already accept that the expansion is not perfect, something we both agree on. The negatives it has simply doesn't bother you as much as it bothers me. As two people with different priorities and values, this is fine. I'm here not to say that Endwalker was objectively bad, but disappointing to me. With this line, we must also realize that no matter what we talk about on this topic, everything we say will be inherently subjective. We're discussing our likes and dislikes, after all.

and there are also times when what you're complaining about literally doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Chekhov's Gun. I am not complaining about why grapes are shaped like crystals apparently or why stars are a certainly color or some other nonsense. I am discussing things that the writers have intentionally brought my attention to. If these things fail to impress or matter, that's a rather strong violation of my time with the focus the writer's brought to it. I feel like I've personally brought up many valid complaints that seldom get answered. You can disagree, but "It literally doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things" is literally your subjective opinion, as I've referred to just above in this post. It doesn't invalidate anything. It's just an expression that something that bothers me does not bother you. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Though I will agree on pacing to some degree, I did feel like there was unneeded fluff at times. The "take the loporitts on a tour" in Labrynthos quests could have been completely removed save for the Urianger scene and nothing of value would lost. It was really dumb and broke the flow of the story at that point. Especially with the serious, urgent music playing while I go show a group of tiny rabbit people around on a little tour. They do seriously need to stop adding these quests to the MSQ that the writers themselves acknowledge as chores every single time. With a story as long as Endwalker, fluff is seriously unnecessary.

It's blatant padding so people don't blitz through the story. I swear, I might've actually passed by their cutscenes in a daze. I hated the Loporrits with a concerning passion and I muted my speakers during any voiced cutscenes. Their voices actually gave me a headache.

[YukikoKurosawa]

The teleporter wasn't powered by aether, or nothing implied it. It's highly advanced technology. The allagans had teleporters in Azys Lla, alongside aetherite crystals, said teleporters are what the Garleans used as basis for the teleporter in the tower of babil. The aether beam they used to blast the moon seal =/= the teleporter. Don't know why they would use the device made for traveling to the moon to attack the moon.

[johnnylogen1337]

Honestly, I thought everything up till Zodiark was near enough perfect.

The 2nd half is good, and jam packed with cool stuff, but I don't think it flows anywhere near as well. It also has the most scenes that I would tweak.

Ultima Thule and the Dead Ends are awesome enough to carry it for me though. I do wish I could change the zone music back to the muffled lyric-less version of the song though, the song is good and all, but I can already tell that having that dude non stop belting that track out is going to get real old real fast.

you can do this actually, but it involves using 3rd party tools

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

I think the best example of this is when you're body-swapped in Garlemald and, at the end of that quest, you literally have to crawl across part of the map before you finally trigger the cutscene.

The crawling part lasts 15 seconds, so I wouldn't call that the best example.

The best example is stealthing after Urianger on the Moon, only for him to immediately turn around and go "Ah, yes, the Warrior of Light. It's good to see you here. Allow me to tell you what I'm doing without any subterfuge on my part at all."

[Rulakir]

Out of all the characters in EW, I am confident in saying that I actually hate Hermes the most. Can't stand stuck up characters like him who is so convinced about his self-righteousness that he is blinded to other things, a blindedness that in the end killed so many and almost destroyed everything.

Same. He went from empath to psychopath too quickly for me to believe he was ever truly a good person. Given the sheer amount of screen time Fandaniel had the lack of development excuse doesn't apply here either. He along with Venat were the two characters I felt like EW was trying to gaslight me on, with multiple NPCs telling me how wonderful they were while their actions spoke differently.

Agree on this, especially the last part. Made a mistake of doing it on reddit, and ho boy, it's not pretty. So much "you just don't understand the point" or "you're missing things, are you a skipper". The nerve of some people smh.

r/ffxiv is the worst place to go for objective views of the game, they are notoriously intolerant of criticism. Regulars know not to bother to post anything negative because they'll be downvoted into oblivion and first timers are quick to learn the lesson. r/ffxivdiscussion is much better, albeit smaller. I sincerely hope SE diversifies their social media viewing because if they're only looking at r/ffxiv and Twitter for feedback, gods help us.

By the point you leave her in Elpis, it’s also not very plausible that Hermes was going to be much use in the Convocation, if his discovery was not exposed.

It's not only not plausible, but Elidibus confirms as much before you leave for Elpis saying that, "Your understanding of what caused the Final Days is consistent with our own." Since the WoL had not learned about dynamis at that point, it would mean it was a subject Hermes never brought to the table and thus one of the main reasons Venat decided not to inform anyone was not even applicable.

The more I reflect upon the story the more I dislike her character, which makes it all the more galling that the writers decided to force this 12k year bond between her and the WoL without a single dialog option given to the player to disapprove. Quite the contrary, the game goes out of its way to portray her as a tragic hero with her actions (which I consider morally reprehensible) excused by the NPCs. (Her admitting she's a monster doesn't change the fact that she's still portrayed as having done the only right and just thing given the circumstances, which isn't even debatable it's just statistically false.) It's even worse if you consider that the writers may have gone with a bootstrap paradox, which would mean that the WoL is essentially responsible for all the atrocities following the end of Elpis because we gave her the playbook to follow.

I understand from a narrative perspective why they did what they did, but I don't like it. While I loved Elpis (the Ancients have the more compelling characters & story), it's difficult to not look on it as giving the WoL 'disposable' friends for emotional manipulation because the Scions are untouchable. I also think they liked this 'full circle' idea too much to the point that everything involving time travel is horribly contrived to the extent of being nonsensical. I had feared, but was not surprised, that they went all in on Hydaelyn being 'good' because otherwise players might be uncomfortable with the WoL having been manipulated since ARR - even though that's still ultimately what happened.

I just hope they stick to their ShB guns that Azem ghosted Venat. There's no way I would accept that Azem would be okay with what happened to their civilization and their friends, the WoL certainly wouldn't and hasn't been with their world and the Scions.

[Lauront]

With Hermes, he comes across as moderately sympathetic initially - until you realise others are accommodating him, but it keeps going to further and further extremes, until he wants even species inimical to the star's broader well being and balance to live for the sake of it. I think at first Emet-Selch wanted to remove him from that environment and put his talents to better uses; later, he realised he was manifestly not fit for it.

I agree with the remainder of your points as well. The closest we get from the Scions being critical of her is how Y'shtola characterises the sundering after the encounter, i.e. even if it was neither just nor kind, trying to imbue a meaning into it that may well have not originally been there - at least not before the Elpis situation.

[KitingGenbu]

I was going to type a lot of negatives about the story but I feel that Emet-Selch and parts of Esteinen kind of gave me my money's worth story wise. I'll probably be one of the only ones who likes how 'simple' Zenos is as well. I also liked Venat but not Haedalyn, if that makes sense.

[EaMett]

SPOILER warning

The Garlemald arc was on point. Not entirely sure why OP took offense to it. It's very reminiscent of indoctrination and dictatorships. Just substitute Garlemald with North Korea and magic-users with the US soldiers, and the story arc and character decisions make perfect sense.
Any story will have lulls, in fact, you need lulls for high points to deliver decent impact. Whether it be in story or execution. I do think some of the lulls could have been reworked though (more on that later)

Honestly, I thought the production quality was great. And although FF14 had been a sequence of 90s anime tropes up to this point, the directing matured greatly and we actually got something fresher and more subtle this expansion (overall). I thought it was a pretty big leap forward from what we had in the past. I would expect that people who haven't watched/read a lot of 90s Japanese media would have enjoyed the previous stuff more, but for me, it has always been a bit of a rehash of stuff that had been done better elsewhere, so EW felt great in comparison.

The one issue I had was the ending being a little rushed. Meteion falling into despair is something we can make sense of. After all, we have a few cutscenes, an entire zone, and a dungeon to understand where her despair is coming from. But the thing is, she doesn't just succumb to despair, she basically turns into a school shooter and we aren't given any walkthrough in her transformation. So now, at the 11th hour, we're introduced to a new character walking through school and attempting to kill everyone we love because "life ain't worth living" and we're meant to relate somehow? That part was very rushed IMO and the story would have gained massively from partially removing some of the slower sections (moon bunny fanservice, Labyrinthos spaceship building) to build up her character more and really drive her transition in a way that was more relatable.

I also think it would've made a lot more sense to really drive the idea that we needed Emet and Hythlodaes at the end. That invoking them was absolutely necessary, and in turn, justify not being able to bring two scions back. That would have elevated all the self-sacrifices scenes and decisions up to that point.

Zenos showing up at the end is totally WTF and I won't go there. I just took it in stride and ended up enjoying it. He's a simpleminded fellow and got a pretty simpleminded arc lol.