Spoiler, Sploilers, and more Spoilers

[Necrodamus]

Sorry i have to say it: enemy not at full strengh, time travel, memory erase.

All this is a really, really cheap resource to tell a history.

Is used a lot becouse is easy to fix or manipulate everything.

im dissapointed nothing else.

[Ranhansha]

You are right, and you forgot how overly sentimental it is to appeal to feelings rather than logic.
Also, how does time travel work? Sometimes you have different time lines (G'raha from ShB) sometimes you don't, like in EW. They tell you you can't change anything and all of a sudden you might as well be the cause of the Final Days. If we hadn't been there, would it all had been the same? Elpis just took place so we met the final boss and it didn't feel as it had appeared out of the blue and to go full fanservice. And what with the meteor showers? Why did they happen?
All in all, I enjoyed the story, but I was expecting a lot more and I hate time travels precisely because these kinds of things happens.

[Lium]

They tell you you can't change anything and all of a sudden you might as well be the cause of the Final Days. If we hadn't been there, would it all had been the same?

Yes, because Hermes already released Meteion's sisters to the expanse and Meteion was already "corrupted". What our presence there helped do was give Venat the foresight to one day fight against the Final Days.

Also, the starshower was explained in Shadowbringers. But if you're asking what they really are, it's a visual representation of the chaos caused by dynamis running rampant.

[Ranhansha]

Yes, because Hermes already released Meteion's sisters to the expanse and Meteion was already "corrupted". What our presence there helped do was give Venat the foresight to one day fight against the Final Days.

Also, the starshower was explained in Shadowbringers. But if you're asking what they really are, it's a visual representation of the chaos caused by dynamis running rampant.

Yeah, I know sooner or later the sisters' corruption would catch up to Meteion, but our interference was what got Emet, Hyth and Venat involved, so how did all that change things? That means we are actually responsible for what is happening in the present, which wouldn't make sense because the future takes place after the past. Time paradoxes suck because they don't make sense and then your story doesn't make sense.

Also, I think I read somewhere in EW that they had to rebuild what had been destroyed by the star shower, which would mean they are not just visual. It was just visual, as you say in ShB, when Elidibus made everyone see it to awaken their Echo. By the way, why does no one in the Source awaken to it when they see the stars? I hope it's included in 6.1. The Final Days were kind of disappointing. We had this amazing trailer and build-up since ShB and then it's just like Aurora Borealis. At that time of year, at that time of day, in that part of the country, localized entirely within Radz-at-han.

[Jandor]

Yeah, I know sooner or later the sisters' corruption would catch up to Meteion, but our interference was what got Emet, Hyth and Venat involved, so how did all that change things? That means we are actually responsible for what is happening in the present, which wouldn't make sense because the future takes place after the past. Time paradoxes suck because they don't make sense and then your story doesn't make sense.

Man it seems like everyone hates time travel all of a sudden. I thought it was fine, you go back in time, Venat gets some crucial information, nothing about your world is significantly changed, no need to split the timeline, all works out cool.

Or maybe I've just watched so much Doctor Who that I've inured myself to it.

Also, I think I read somewhere in EW that they had to rebuild what had been destroyed by the star shower, which would mean they are not just visual. It was just visual, as you say in ShB, when Elidibus made everyone see it to awaken their Echo. By the way, why does no one in the Source awaken to it when they see the stars? I hope it's included in 6.1. The Final Days were kind of disappointing. We had this amazing trailer and build-up since ShB and then it's just like Aurora Borealis. At that time of year, at that time of day, in that part of the country, localized entirely within Radz-at-han.

Hydaelyn is too weak to do the big floaty crystal introduction from the start of ARR. That's my guess anyway.

They start to awaken, they get whisked away for the Hydaelyn meet and greet, they get an 'Error 5005: Mothercrystal not found', they get dumped back into the real world with no awakening.

It's a meta-commentary on login server failures.

I for one loved the whole experience Endwalker gave me for me it did everything right, outside of very few low points but you can't only have highs.

How thematically appropriate. Maybe Labyrinthos felt like it was never going to end on purpose.

[CeL1790]

Yeah, I know sooner or later the sisters' corruption would catch up to Meteion, but our interference was what got Emet, Hyth and Venat involved, so how did all that change things? That means we are actually responsible for what is happening in the present, which wouldn't make sense because the future takes place after the past. Time paradoxes suck because they don't make sense and then your story doesn't make sense.

Also, I think I read somewhere in EW that they had to rebuild what had been destroyed by the star shower, which would mean they are not just visual. It was just visual, as you say in ShB, when Elidibus made everyone see it to awaken their Echo. By the way, why does no one in the Source awaken to it when they see the stars? I hope it's included in 6.1. The Final Days were kind of disappointing. We had this amazing trailer and build-up since ShB and then it's just like Aurora Borealis. At that time of year, at that time of day, in that part of the country, localized entirely within Radz-at-han.

What we have is a Causal loop or a bootstrap paradox, I could try and find the words to explain it but The Doctor did it much better than I could

"The Doctor begins by explaining the bootstrap paradox to us: Let’s say a time traveler goes back to meet Beethoven, and finds that the man never really existed. The time traveler decides to take out their sheet music, copy it out by hand, and publish the works so that the universe isn’t robbed of the music. But the question becomes—where did Beethoven’s music truly come from?"

So, in essence, we always went back, a constant moment in time. our road would/has/and always will lead us to traveling through time to that very moment.

[NanaWiloh]

What we have is a Causal loop or a bootstrap paradox, I could try and find the words to explain it but The Doctor did it much better than I could

"The Doctor begins by explaining the bootstrap paradox to us: Let’s say a time traveler goes back to meet Beethoven, and finds that the man never really existed. The time traveler decides to take out their sheet music, copy it out by hand, and publish the works so that the universe isn’t robbed of the music. But the question becomes—where did Beethoven’s music truly come from?"

So, in essence, we always went back, a constant moment in time. our road would/has/and always will lead us to traveling through time to that very moment.

Points to you, you did a better job of explaining it then I did in my post lol

[Penthea]

Yes, because Hermes already released Meteion's sisters to the expanse and Meteion was already "corrupted". What our presence there helped do was give Venat the foresight to one day fight against the Final Days.

Blows my mind how some have missed this part. By the time we arrived in Elpis the damage had already been done. Meteion's sisters had already left to explore the universe. With or without our presence Hermes would have requested an update on what they found. Him sending them off to the universe is what caused the Final Days. Not us going back in time.

Venat may have done the Sundering anyway due to a distaste for the repeated sacrifices being made to Zodiark. If our unsundered self didn't approve of it, then why couldn't anyone else? Especially someone who held the same seat as we did. Furthermore our unsundered self felt this way even without knowing about any of the time travel Venat knew about.

I think making Venat a villain would have been very cliché because over and over again we ended up in conflict with those who summoned or became primals. She would have been "just another primal" if she turned out to be a villain. And before anyone brings up Iceheart remember that she was at first treated as a villain to the point that we fought her to undo her summoning. We did not go to Hydaelyn with this intention even though we knew what she was. Instead Venat turned out to be someone who only had bad choices presented to her and chose to do what she believed to be the least terrible decision.

Going to Elpis showed us that the past was not the perfect paradise Emet-Selch had lead us to believe. Everyone was expected to be happy and Hermes felt isolated because of this. Had his depression been properly acknowledged by his peers he may had never made Meteion. He couldn't find proper connection among his people so he sought it among the stars. If people had simply thought twice about how messed up it is to just coldly erasing creatures they made Hermes may not have felt so alone with his thoughts and feelings.

Also Meteion explains why the Ancients had no choice but to summon Zodiark. They had no idea that what was responsible for the Final Days was something from outside the planet so they couldn't even fight it. All they could do was create a shield and hope that would be enough. Sure Venat could have told them but it's not like they would all believe her. It would have divided their people even more and Zodiark would have been summoned anyway.

And without the sundering the Ancients would have been doomed to be entirely wiped out instead of just have their souls sundered. Eventually they would have explored the stars when their great work on their planet was done, and they would sooner or later encounter Meteion. People would have gone back to their home with their overpowering despair and use their creation magics to end themselves. Something similar to that already happened with another Ancient-like race Meteion found. Her repeated questions about happiness drove them to scrutinise themselves too much so they concluded that death was the only path.

I like that there is no clear villain in this situation. Hermes' personal problems being largely ignored drove him to make a reckless well-intentioned mistake when he had the Meteia explore the stars. The Meteia were tasked with answering a deceptively complex question that has no clear answer and they lacked the life experience to understand nuance, so they were doomed to be drowned in despair. Zodiark had to be summoned to stop the Final Days. The Sundering had to happen because at best Zodiark was a temporary solution that only protected the Ancients as long as they never left the planet, but without knowing that the Final Days came from outside their planet they wouldn't have known to never leave. The ascians only wanted to revive their people, they didn't induce calamities for fun or conquest.

The story shows that you don't need an ill-intentioned entity for disaster to happen, sometimes people have the misfortune of being presented with only terrible choices and that knowledge is power but you need to be careful about the questions you ask.

/wall of text

I enjoyed the EW msq a lot.

[QT_Melon]

Blows my mind how some have missed this part. By the time we arrived in Elpis the damage had already been done. Meteion's sisters had already left to explore the universe. With or without our presence Hermes would have requested an update on what they found. Him sending them off to the universe is what caused the Final Days. Not us going back in time.

Convenient for the story right?

Also Meteion explains why the Ancients had no choice but to summon Zodiark. They had no idea that what was responsible for the Final Days was something from outside the planet so they couldn't even fight it. All they could do was create a shield and hope that would be enough. Sure Venat could have told them but it's not like they would all believe her. It would have divided their people even more and Zodiark would have been summoned anyway.

Good ol' Communication problem trope that's worse than the Good was Always Evil one.

EVEN THOUGH it was made obvious that Herme's magical 2002 memory erasing device DID something to Emet and Hythlodaeus. They were made aware their memories were erased. Somehow Venat could not communicate to those two at the very least. But us, non corporeal and all could be made to be given form, ALLOWED US to tell our story and as ridiculous it seemed was worth investigating by the very same duo. ...okay. Oh wait, she can't change the future - but that's not to say NOT telling would have done the same because it's not like WE told her how events with Emet and Hythlodaeus specifically played out since we only got bits of it BECAUSE WE WEREN'T THERE.

But then again, we actually already died in the 8th Umbral Calamity. So...protecting the 'future' doesn't cut it as we already had time branching off

Look I did like most of Endwalker and did enjoy Elpis and glimpse of Ancient life through Elpis but there's really some jank parts of the story that just broke me out of it. I think the montage made it worse since even though I know it was to focus on Venat - it made her feel like a totalitarian authority even though in Anamesis Anyder there was a group, and convenient how Azem was "missing"...

[Kyrj]

You are right, and you forgot how overly sentimental it is to appeal to feelings rather than logic.
Also, how does time travel work? Sometimes you have different time lines (G'raha from ShB) sometimes you don't, like in EW. They tell you you can't change anything and all of a sudden you might as well be the cause of the Final Days. If we hadn't been there, would it all had been the same? Elpis just took place so we met the final boss and it didn't feel as it had appeared out of the blue and to go full fanservice. And what with the meteor showers? Why did they happen?
All in all, I enjoyed the story, but I was expecting a lot more and I hate time travels precisely because these kinds of things happens.

Elpis could've been cut from the game and it would've been a lot better. Really thought they were gonna go with Hydaelyn as the big bad but nope, sad bird girl is the big bad. Completely stupid.