*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Absimiliard]

We’ve rediscovered the god in the gaps arguments folks.

If you want why I believe they were meant to be human, few things.

1. Like mentioned by Slatersev, the new life to be sacrificed was also said to be entrusted with the planet, an odd statement for plants and animals.
2. The Ascian plan was to sacrifice the inhabitants of the Source post rejoining to replace the souls in Zodiark, a plan that is stated multiple times to not be changed from the beginning.
3. For them to be an equivalent exchange for the souls in Zodiark, logically they could not be creations or familiars, as those are mentioned to be less aetherically dense.
4. The shade of Hythlodaeus uses the phrase “life energies” to describe both the sacrifice done to create Hydaelyn, and the planned third sacrifice.
5. If such an option to use other forms of life existed, then it stands to reason that the Ancients would’ve used as much of that life in the initial sacrifices as possible, yet not a single example of such a thing exists.

1.) The lives the Ancients intended to sacrifice to Zodiark were not the lives the Ascians intended to sacrifice. This is an important distinction.
2.) This is only partly accurate.
3.) We learn in Elpis that some of the Ancients' creations gained souls and were in turn able to create more like them via standard reproduction. A lack of aetheric density can easily be made up for with sheer volume.
4.) Can't disagree here. That phrase got tossed around quite a bit, though life energies and souls are two different things. Zodiark quite clearly contains a multitude of actual souls, not just the aetheric energies of their owners. This is mere supposition on my part, but I figure this might explain why Zodiark's aether reserves don't seem capable of being fully depleted.
5.) From what we are lead to understand in Elpis, much of their world is not yet inhabited by their creations. It seems quite probable that they sacrificed themselves for lack of any other viable sacrifices, or perhaps because Zodiark simply had to be so overwhelmingly powerful to perform its intended function. One of the things they did when they had Zodiark restore the world's ability to sustain life was to have him create new life as well, which we are lead to believe stemmed from the Ancients' own creations.

[Veloran]

5.) From what we are lead to understand in Elpis, much of their world is not yet inhabited by their creations. It seems quite probable that they sacrificed themselves for lack of any other viable sacrifices, or perhaps because Zodiark simply had to be so overwhelmingly powerful to perform its intended function. One of the things they did when they had Zodiark restore the world's ability to sustain life was to have him create new life as well, which we are lead to believe stemmed from the Ancients' own creations.

Another note on this point - The Ancients only got the Zodiark plan up and running with the first sacrifice after 99% of the planet had been rendered a desolate wasteland and Amaurot was just about the last place standing. This was the entire point of the second sacrifice, the world was effectively dead and the cycle of life destroyed. Thus they were unable to do anything but use themselves.

Maybe such a thing could have been averted if they had somehow known in advance, but that is neither here nor there.

[Lyth]

My issues with what Venat did have to do with the massive lack of consent on the part of the people she sundered.

Hm. This is a fair point. If you're going to perform a rebellious act in opposition to an established governing body to usurp its power, it's only natural that you run a public opinion poll before committing high treason to make sure that everyone is on board first. Hang on, let's not sacrifice the souls of the lesser mortals without their consent just yet. Let's just wait till we get these poll numbers back before we decide if it's appropriate to stage a coup, first.

You must really dislike Emet, for wanting to sacrifice the souls of all the sundered people of the world to Zodiark for the rest of eternity without their permission. You also probably detest both the Scions and Azem, for killing off Emet and ruining his plan without sanction from the Ascian collective.

Sometimes your time for talking is just up and you have to act. And failing to act is an action in itself. That was the point of Venat's speech in Anamnesis Anyder: Are you all on board with this, knowing that your former friends will forever condemn us for standing up against the Convocation? If so, there's no point discussing it further.

[EaraGrace]

It occurs as a stylised fast-forward presentation of all that would take place. There are many details which it omits, which you can easily determine by going through the compilation of sources on this topic from SHB.

It reveals as much as it simplifies, we can’t ignore it.

But a single statement in the EN version from him that is even vaguer is sufficient for you to arrive at the view that he thought his people couldn’t’ve found a way to drive back Meteion? I see.

Certainly requires less acrobatics. But let’s play out the tape. If Emet is only referring to the being physically at the point on the path, does that not also mean they would fail at defeating Meteion? That’s literally the only path there, if you don’t get there you don’t defeat Meteion.

Mayhap there is. It’s still a narrower statement than the EN version and it is still him wishing to grant her a compliment. But I’m certainly not convinced that that statement suffices to make the point some of you are trying to extrapolate from it.

I think the fact he is even willing to grant her a compliment should be indicative of his thoughts. He suffered a thousand thousand lives because of her, compliments aren’t exactly easily given afterward.

I’m afraid this is where you lose me. We know why she sundered the world. We also know that this plan was a plan that’d accomplish defeating Meteion. Emet had made his peace with his loss. He also does not abdicate his principles, and as ever, his primary interest is the star’s continuation. Agreeing to leave matters at this rather than continue to prosecute a fight he’s already lost would be futile and he was intent to honour his word following his test. What this statement does not suffice to confirm is, had things played out differently, that the sundering might’ve been avoided altogether.

As Venat notes, the Final Days would mean the end of all the things he holds dear. She had friends, comrades, loves, hopes and desires in that Ancient world. Why do you believe she wouldn’t exhaust all options to see them protected, as the creation of Hydaelyn and Sundering the world would mean losing all of that and more? I’m to believe she made the decision without exhausting all reasonable alternatives?

I agree that many =/= all. Much like I’d say not all sundered need to be in a position to drive Meteion back, when a vastly smaller squad sufficed to protect all those at home. Though for someone who says nothing is impossible, I’d like to see her attempt a full explanation of all the facts concerned with all the methods at her disposal and the ancients to be given a chance to see how they might adapt to deal with the situation and not with mere platitudes thrown at them at a time of intense suffering, with their world dying beneath them and the majority of their people gone to prevent this. By the point she sundered them she'd given up on them. So why oh why not try reasoning with them before it got to that point? The story introduced barriers to this and I understand why, but it is also why I don't think they were given a proper opportunity to deal with the facts of what confronted them.

On that we can find an understanding on. My perspective is that she had every reason to exhaust the alternatives and seems to have done so going by both the Anyder scene and the cutscene post Elpis. You obviously disagree. Perhaps that will just remain a disagreement then.

However, neither with Emet-Selch nor Hythlodaeus exactly wilting away like lilies at the revelation of the truth, and with a civilisation already divided on the matter of the third stage of sacrifices (until they eventually became convinced it was the way forward), and demonstrably capable of adapting to new observations as per Elpis sidequests, I am not convinced that they wouldn’t’ve undertaken the necessary measures to deal with Meteion and continue as a civilisation if they received the full story. The unsundered Ascians fought to restore their civilisation for almost 12k years, with Elidibus willing to even go beyond this. They did not lack a fighting spirit. You are free to disagree on these points. However, we’re not going to see eye to eye on it unless the writers introduce something that comes closer to confirming it.

I think this is relative. As Alisaie points out, what breaks one person may not break another and that has nothing to do with strength. The Ancients handled long life spans much more easily than we would. Yet they didn’t handle sudden, unexpected death as well.

That is what it will take, yes. And until such time, if it ever comes, we're probably going to remain at an impasse on this.

If only Elidibus was here to yell at us.

And I made the point that we do not know #1 whether the life was sentient or not and #2 whether they would have consented or not. And I can not side with Venat's group until I have that information. I side fully with the Ancients sundered because their consent was not sought or given prior to Venat's actions and that is utterly morally repugnant in my eyes.

I’m asking for your opinion on Venats group. Let me try this again.

Do you believe that it was argued that a group of non-sentient life should be given control of the star? That this was an important part of the moral conflict that divided Amaurot society?

[Lauront]

Another note on this point - The Ancients only got the Zodiark plan up and running with the first sacrifice after 99% of the planet had been rendered a desolate wasteland and Amaurot was just about the last place standing. This was the entire point of the second sacrifice, the world was effectively dead and the cycle of life destroyed. Thus they were unable to do anything but use themselves.

Maybe such a thing could have been averted if they had somehow known in advance, but that is neither here nor there.

Indeed. They had emphasised wanting to complete their plan on Zodiark before the crisis hit Amaurot. It's later specified in EW that it moved very rapidly. I believe a big part of that was because of where the fuel to summon him was going to come from and that the sacrifices were forced on them as a necessity given the depleted state of the star.

[Absimiliard]

Indeed. They had emphasised wanting to complete their plan on Zodiark before the crisis hit Amaurot. It's later specified in EW that it moved very rapidly. I believe a big part of that was because of where the fuel to summon him was going to come from and that the sacrifices were forced on them as a necessity given the depleted state of the star.

The text in EW makes it very clear that the sacrifices were made voluntarily.

[Veloran]

That this was an important part of the moral conflict that divided Amaurot society?

I believe the issue of the third sacrifice was an entirely dropped plot point that was replaced with the conflict of "deny suffering" versus "accept suffering".

[Theodric]

The text in EW makes it very clear that the sacrifices were made voluntarily.

There's also confirmation that the plan did not involve 'endless sacrifices' to Zodiark and instead was meant to mark a return for the Ancients as stewards whilst freeing the Ancients who voluntarily sacrificed themselves to ensure the continued existence of Etheirys:

[redheadturk]

It reveals as much as it simplifies, we can’t ignore it.
I’m asking for your opinion on Venats group. Let me try this again.

Do you believe that it was argued that a group of non-sentient life should be given control of the star? That this was an important part of the moral conflict that divided Amaurot society?

And I am saying we do not have enough information for me to have a firm opinion. I find Venat's actions morally objectionable for the reasons stated. Necessary as the other poster stated or not. they are still morally awful in my eyes. But I do not have enough information about what kind of lives would have comprised the third sacrifice nor whether those lives would have consented if they were sentient for me to take their side.

[Lyth]

Their master plan was conceived of without knowledge of why Venat did what she did and is very much intended to reverse what they (and even she, to some degree) view as a heinous act perpetrated on their world, whether some wish to refer to it as “genocide”, “omnicide”, whatever. The consequences of it are rather undeniable and the same either way, whatever word is used.

The third stage of sacrifice is conceived without that knowledge she acquired of Meteion’s report, too. And as I said, for me to arrive at the conclusion that it is sound or moral, I’d want further details than we’ve been given (especially concerning what was being sacrificed), and to see whether they’d stick to this plan even after she provided this knowledge or whether they’d abandon it and change course if they saw it’d endanger their star ultimately.

But then my initial post was directed at a poster whose views on their plan are at odds with the canon source materials on that topic, right down to the sequence of events they’re postulating and the way in which they’re handwaving Zodiark away as necessary to Venat’s plan, claiming their plan was idiotic, while failing to acknowledge that they lacked essential pieces of knowledge. Even the third stage cannot be said to be idiotic based on the knowledge they possessed, even if the morals of it could be sketchy depending on what the life to be involved in it was.

Meteion's report isn't relevant to the Convocation's proposal, however. It doesn't matter if they viewed Zodiark as a temporary solution or a permanent one. They planned on bartering for the souls of their friends with the souls of non-Amaurotian life. This really had nothing to do with protecting the star.