*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[AziraSyuren]

Except we do know this. We’re told this in the short story. Even the “tempered” convocation was split on the idea of the sacrifices. They didn’t calm down about it until Elidibus ejected from Zodiark and they saw a soul could come out of Zodiark, so i’m not sure where you’re getting this from.

As for the idea that they would continue sacrificing and sacrificing….we’re told via Hythlodaeus that once the 3rd set was done they planned to resume their duties as stewards of the star, there is nothing indicating they would continue sacrificing. For all we know they could have put Zodiark into Pandaemonium afterwards or put him in the center of the star like Hydaelyn was.

I strongly disagree. I think there's every possible indication that they would've kept going. We were shown that suffering was now inherent and unavoidable in their world, that they couldn't cope with it, and that they were too traumatized to resist the urge to undo it. We were told of (and shown directly in the Dead Ends and Ultima Thule in general) many different races that did that exact same thing and had the exact same problem and there's no reason to believe that the Ancients would've been any more responsible. There's no reason to assume that Hythlodaeus' take on what they would've done is more accurate just because he has a pretty face and kissable lips.

[HappyHubris]

Except that using Zodiark requires sacrificing an absurd amount of life. We can't really put a name on the crime that the third sacrifice would've been, given we don't know the selection process, but we do know that the people in charge of deciding that had no compunctions about causing genocides for Zodiark's sake. ...rather a lot of them, actually.

The people of Eorzea sacrifice endless animal life for sustenance; heck they slaughtered beastmen for profit. How is that different from sacrificing animal life for a world reset?

[Jandor]

The people of Eorzea sacrifice endless animal life for sustenance; heck they slaughtered beastmen for profit. How is that different from sacrificing animal life for a world reset?

It probably wasn't just animal life, I doubt Ancient society would have been split over whether to hand the world over to some cows and rabbits and such.

As for the beastmen, well, I don't think anyone is arguing that slaughtering the beastmen for profit is a good thing.

[AlysanneVrannai]

We are explicitly shown what the end result of the Ancient society would be in the third segment of the final dungeon, the society there is supposed to be the end result of what the Ancients had. A perfect world, with no meaning left, seeking an end to their own existance.
Even if the Ancients survived the final days, Venat was STILL in the right to "cut their wings" and proclaim that "mankind shall walk". It was the only solution, they have to suffer to live.

[Zoliru]

Yeah, the ancients would have almost certainly failed in Ultima Thule. Seems they have too much aether to interact with and manipulate the dynamis there, but not enough to personally fight and win an aether vs. dynamis sumo match at the edge of the Universe.

I picture it as sort of, lets say you get 10 points to spend. The Ancients went all in, 10 on aether, 0 on dynamis.
That point distribution wasn't going to work for the threat they were facing, so we all got chopped up and remade and now we've got a 3 in aether and maybe a 2 in dynamis. Yeah I know it's a little unfair we lost 5 points along the way but it was kind of a long and messy process to get us to this point , was still good enough to win in the end though.

Just to clarify but what we are told ingame is not that Dynamis is an equal force to Aether, even with those said 10 planets, Meiteion still couldnt pierce through the celestial barrier and had to work slowly leading to only piercing the weaker parts of the barrier while gnawing on the rest, it sounds like Dynamis is extremely weak against Aether but with enough Dynamis and enough time, you can slowly chew threw a barrier of aether but it still wouldnt be able to beat a concentrated amount of aether unless the piece of aether just stands there doing nothing for years.

So the fact stands that Aether>>>>>>>Dynamis.

You are correct to say Ancients wouldnt be able to compete in Ultima Thule since we learned that Ethyris was especially strong in Aether while Ultimate thule is mostly devoid of it with Dynamis being the dominant form of power, but like I said again, you only need to be creative, what if a huge source of Aether was moved to Ultimate thula, in a very similar way to how we moved there, it isnt unlikely that the ancients could have figured out something similar, and since they were able to use aether in a far more reliable and effective way they would have been able to be a lot more deadly to meiteion.

Now the main task at hand would be tracking meiteion, you would need either somekind of spell or more likely a creation, obviously not more entelecheia but more concepts that might be able to detect and manipulate dynamis since the ancients couldnt.

Again, with the power of creation at hand and nigh infinite time, there arent any problems that cant be solved, but its a video game at the end of the day so they have to make the good guys win.

We are explicitly shown what the end result of the Ancient society would be in the third segment of the final dungeon, the society there is supposed to be the end result of what the Ancients had. A perfect world, with no meaning left, seeking an end to their own existance.
Even if the Ancients survived the final days, Venat was STILL in the right to "cut their wings" and proclaim that "mankind shall walk". It was the only solution, they have to suffer to live.

Just a reminder that this is a video game and that story does not make for a meaningful argument about one's own existence by saying everyone is like X, this is a written story and you cant use it as actual lessons.

Especially since it is highly unlikely for an advanced society like that to still deal with existential issues when answers for the reason being even have such questions are internal, and once understood, the answers to the questions hermes kept asking become irrelevant, maybe a society of Hermes would end up like that, but not one full of Emets

Without the memory wipe of the time loop Hermes would have been the psycho nut he became and been largely useless and no one but him knew any remote way to create entelechies.

Um nowhere is it said that only Hermes is able to create entelecheia, he was the only one INTERESTED in creating them hence he did, that doesnt mean others are incapable of doing the same, after all the power of creation is simply up to your imagination.

[AlysanneVrannai]

Just a reminder that this is a video game and that story does not make for a meaningful argument about one's own existence by saying everyone is like X, this is a written story and you cant use it as actual lessons.

Especially since it is highly unlikely for an advanced society like that to still deal with existential issues when answers for the reason being even have such questions are internal, and once understood, the answers to the questions hermes kept asking become irrelevant, maybe a society of Hermes would end up like that, but not one full of Emets

I dont understand, what makes a written story incapable of teaching lessons?

[Nothv13]

Um nowhere is it said that only Hermes is able to create entelecheia, he was the only one INTERESTED in creating them hence he did, that doesnt mean others are incapable of doing the same, after all the power of creation is simply up to your imagination.

The fact that the vast majority of Ancients didn't even know what Dynamis is. Even the Azems, who's entire point is travelling helping and learning new things knew virtually nothing about it outside of something exists. Power of creation is shown as much more complicated than just "your imagination". In fact it is shown to require extreme precision and understanding everything about the creation on a very deep level and it still not being fully understood as shown when creatures would do things and act it ways counter to how the designers believed they were designed. Not to mention, the stronger in Aether an ancient, then probably the less likelihood of being able to successfully make a dynamis using creature due to how aether drowns out the normal ambient dynamis of the planet.

[HyoMinPark]

Just a reminder that this is a video game and that story does not make for a meaningful argument about one's own existence by saying everyone is like X, this is a written story and you cant use it as actual lessons.

This is just blatantly false. A most basic example directly countering this would be fables—short tales designed with the intent of teaching some sort of morality or life lesson. You absolutely can use writing to teach lessons—in any media, not just printed media. To say this makes it clear that you’ve never looked beyond the surface when it comes to a story. It’s very common for authors to push certain narratives and lessons in their writing if one knows where to look for them.

[Zoliru]

(Unless you're the same guy who posted something like this on reddit a few weeks back and claimed that Genocide is okay because the Ancients were superior.)

Oh i remember such a thread called "Would you join Emet Selch and the Ascians if you could?"

The poll ended with the below results:

-63 Yes, I would support Emet in bringing back the old world.
-155 No, too many sundered lives would be lost.
-18 Other, explain.

So it seems supporting Emet isnt just something a tiny minority of people would support, and keep in mind I just checked and that thread was a month ago, so before we had all the facts about the Ancients and Zodiarc, and with those, I am feeling even more people would have joined Emet than just one third.

The fact that the vast majority of Ancients didn't even know what Dynamis is. Even the Azems, who's entire point is travelling helping and learning new things knew virtually nothing about it outside of something exists. Power of creation is shown as much more complicated than just "your imagination". In fact it is shown to require extreme precision and understanding everything about the creation on a very deep level and it still not being fully understood as shown when creatures would do things and act it ways counter to how the designers believed they were designed. Not to mention, the stronger in Aether an ancient, then probably the less likelihood of being able to successfully make a dynamis using creature due to how aether drowns out the normal ambient dynamis of the planet.

Why do you believe Hermes was so extremely unique and nobody else can create anything similar even though they hold the power of creation. It is a skill that needs honing but it is not something only Hermes could achieve given time and a will.

I dont disagree that Hermes was great at creating concepts, especially unique ideas but that was due to his feelings and creativity, not because of some hidden power, there's was many more people living in Etherys at the time so the possibility of someone being able to create similar things is quite likely.


In addition your last statement is wrong, Hermes created Meiteion, he was an ancient with incredibly amounts of Aether like any other agent, so that proves you can create entelecheia as an ancient to be affected and even control dynamis, you just need to experiment more, and if the subject of dynamis becomes more wide spread as time passes, more ancients might have ideas on creating such concepts.

Though I do feel the fact that everyone is able to create a concept before even asking for authorization and calling it "an early test" before submission can be quite dangerous, definitely something that felt off.

This is just blatantly false. A most basic example directly countering this would be fables—short tales designed with the intent of teaching some sort of morality or life lesson. You absolutely can use writing to teach lessons—in any media, not just printed media. To say this makes it clear that you’ve never looked beyond the surface when it comes to a story. It’s very common for authors to push certain narratives and lessons in their writing if one knows where to look for them.

Made up stories cannot be used in serious argument.
Let's say you have two people arguing for something opposite happening in the future, someone literally makes up a fictional tale in the spot to support his argument, nobody would take that person seriously.
And as I have explained that story is wrong, because it is extremely unlike for a civilization to reach the state it had, yet have complete lack of self awareness and still struggle with concepts such as "reasons to live" which become irrelevant when one understands themselves and psychology aka your very nature and how it behaves.
But at the end of the day, the writer needed to show a fictional hyper civilization that was depressed to make the story work, it is fiction writing. Dont confuse that with real life truths.

[Nothv13]

...

Because in all of the time the ancients were around and knew about the Elpis flower, not a one other than Hermes paid any attention to Dynamis. It was, to some, at best a theory so weak it was not worth researching and others a completely unknown thing. Ancient society was not about uniqueness, it was about conformity for the greater good, hence why the masks, and unified robes existed. Those that were unique were special in the ancient society and would be sought out for spots on the convocation. Even Hythlodeus being so weak he couldn't transform was up for the convocation because of a unique trait, so it seems that uniqueness plays more of a role in selection than power

It was indeed Herme's passion and goal that led him to mess with dynamis. We don't know how long it took him to get as far as he did, and he did not keep record of it, even if there was another, they'd start from scratch as without the mid wipe Hermes would have been already drinking the despair coolaid and not will to help.

Yes they can create a creature of it, this does not mean they can control it. At best they could contain it within an aether creation like with Meiteion. One of the reason Venat sundered the world was to create people that while weaker in aether, they could tap into and use dynamis as their bodies didn't just repel it like the Ancient's bodies did. We also don't exactly know how strong in Aether Hermes is. Stronger than Hythlodeus and strong enough to transform (something that was considered a pretty average ability). Even if they did create an army of Dynamis familiars to wage war against Metieon, they'd have a planets worth of hope versus a universes worth of despair and no guarantee that their familiars would not be straight up corrupted by the vast amount of despair from Metieon, just like their other creations.