*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Bright-Flower]

even if we had done exactly what emet wanted and everything went right, the rejoining wouldn't be perfect. the void is still useless.

This assumes it could never be fixed. If the Empty on the First can be reversed, I see no reason why a way couldn't be found to fix the Void eventually.

[Rulakir]

Re: The effects of the sundering on the Ancients

Even Emet's retelling of events in ShB are somewhat contradictory, and perhaps that can be explained by them not wanting to create a new model to act as what Ryne would've been turned into, which we know wouldn't have been an exact copy as depicted. As I recall, both Emet and Elidibus refer to the Ancients post-sundering as being "malformed creatures" and, according to Varis (who obviously would've gotten his info from the unsundered), the sundering is what caused the different races to come into existence.

[EaraGrace]

The dread of an axe murderer in your kitchen supersedes the dread of existentialism. The Ancients clearly wanted to live.

They wanted to live under very specific conditions, but when faced with oblivion would they? When they see that every other civilization known eventually died off, and sometimes because they wanted to, would they?

These are the people Venat trusted and expected to make the ultimate sacrifice, so yes I would expect them to do so. Midgardsormr did.

A handful of close confidants is not enough to simultaneously restrain Zodiark, find Meteion, and end the song of oblivion. It took millennia of planning, resources and effort to even just get there.

It doesn't make sense because Hydaelyn is an incredibly powerful primal and supposedly she did nothing because that was simply not the nature of Ancient primals.

Shes no where near as powerful fans Zodiark. It’s stressed multiple times that the power of enervation was what allowed Hydaelyn to succeed. Zodiark was another level of strength, at his height.

Who cares if they panic. The Final Days isn't predicated upon their panic.

It quite literally is though. Panic, despair, hopelessness we’re the emotions that turned people and magicks into blasphemies.

There are countless solutions on this front. The first and most obvious - Hermes isn't even necessary because all the information that he brought to the table was already revealed to Venat in Elpis. Another, trick him to get his cooperation. Another, tell the Convocation before Hermes even joined. Way more besides.

It’s stated multiple times that Hermes is a necessary part of halting the Final Days, not for the things that happened at Elpis, but for his knowledge and expertise. Tricking an incredibly intelligent man with the ability to see if you’re lying seems unwise. And telling before he joins just potentially means the Fonal Days aren’t halted at all.

A side note, since the Ancients are living lie detectors now, is it any wonder why the Convocation rejected Venat's objections? She was lying to them.

They never once accuse her of lying, nor would they if they knew her intent. Was she withholding information, sure. But that’s not lying. Hermes was withholding information on Meteion when he meets with Hythlo and Emet. Did they notice? Nope. Because that’s not a lie.

[Veloran]

They wanted to live under very specific conditions, but when faced with oblivion would they? When they see that every other civilization known eventually died off, and sometimes because they wanted to, would they?

If that was really their choice they deserve the freedom to make that choice. But moreover when faced with that revelation Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus, and Venat don't suddenly go mad and decide that life is meaningless, they were surprised but far from shocked into utter despair.

A handful of close confidants is not enough to simultaneously restrain Zodiark, find Meteion, and end the song of oblivion. It took millennia of planning, resources and effort to even just get there.

Maybe you should read back? This part of the conversation was about Venat pulling a Midgardsormr and choosing to leave rather than impose her will on the rest of the Ancients.

Shes no where near as powerful fans Zodiark.

Ah yes, so Zodiark is just arbitrarily at the power threshold needed to give a vague "tug" while Hydaelyn isn't. As I said, this is not very good writing.

It quite literally is though. Panic, despair, hopelessness we’re the emotions that turned people and magicks into blasphemies.

Firstly, the Ancients did not turn into Blasphemes. Secondly no, it wasn't panic that incited the creation of terminus beasts, it was a massive deluge of Dynamis energy from Meteion hijacking their magics. If Meteion's energy wasn't in the process of saturating an area, panic would do nothing - And as we see and are told towards the end of Elpis, Meteion was busy flying off to the edge of the universe to gather power. Venat could have told everyone about the situation immediately after Ktisis, and because Meteion wasn't yet blasting the world everyone could panic and nothing would happen.

And frankly, even the idea they would panic is silly. These are people that formed an orderly queue to sacrifice their own lives on the eve of the world's final doom.

It’s stated multiple times that Hermes is a necessary part of halting the Final Days, not for the things that happened at Elpis, but for his knowledge and expertise.

Again, all the information they needed had already been revealed to Venat. She already knew the aetherial currents would need to be stimulated to shield the planet from Dynamis, if she had gone to the Convocation immediately they could have even done it before 90% of the planet was wiped out. As a reminder Venat literally allowed every other civilization and city other than Amaurot on the planet to be destroyed while the Convocation was racing to figure out what the problem was, when she already knew the problem and what had to be done.

They never once accuse her of lying, nor would they if they knew her intent. Was she withholding information, sure. But that’s not lying.

All anybody would need to do is ask her "why" or ask what she knows and she would be in the middle of a lie. But whereas Meteion was just Hermes' side project that they were hardly interested in, Venat would be trying to convince them why they should allow their friends and families to remain trapped in Zodiark. These are two very different situations.

[Alleo]

The other thing I think about that does upset me is that answer we got about why Hydaelyn (now passed off as) embellished the Heavensward story of her and Zodiark. Okay it was to help rile us up. Keep in mind however, how she told the story. She basically asked Minfillia to become her spokesperson. I don't even like Minfillia, but that's messed up.

So basically you asked someone to DIE and become your mouthpiece so you can lie to our WoL....WAT?!?!

Honestly I just take this as the devs still not really knowing were to go with both of them (Zodiark and Hydealyn). It is unfortunate but you could (imo) see the same with the WoDs from the First. I wonder if they would have made them so crazy (especially the bard) if they had known what role they will play in the future.

Re: The effects of the sundering on the Ancients

Even Emet's retelling of events in ShB are somewhat contradictory, and perhaps that can be explained by them not wanting to create a new model to act as what Ryne would've been turned into, which we know wouldn't have been an exact copy as depicted. As I recall, both Emet and Elidibus refer to the Ancients post-sundering as being "malformed creatures" and, according to Varis (who obviously would've gotten his info from the unsundered), the sundering is what caused the different races to come into existence.

I mean malformed creatures could very well just be them talking about their souls. After all Emet did not even count us as alive just because we were not whole.

Varis talk could have been after a cycle of reincarnations. That bascially thanks to the sundering (and thus later dieing) the new races came forth.

Its a bit annoying that we dont really know what happened after the sundering but maybe even the devs thought it better to leave that a mystery. Or we will know more about this in the 24 man raid.

[EaraGrace]

If that was really their choice they deserve the freedom to make that choice…

On the first point, I actually am very sympathetic to that argument. The second I completely disagree with. Emet fell into a despair that led him to committing horrific acts of evil and then inviting the WoL to kill him. Hythlo was not conscious due to Zodiarks imprisonment and Venat is the one who made the initial judgement that they couldn’t handle it.

Maybe you should read back?.

And my argument is that not only is this a worthless move as unlike Midgard there’s no planet protected from Meteion waiting to be found, the actual resources needed to travel between planets required thousands of years to gather and develop and there’s no reason to believe the group she could gather together could accomplish this.

Ah yes, so Zodiark is just arbitrarily at the power threshold needed to give a vague "tug" while Hydaelyn isn't...

Hydaelyns summoners sacrificed themselves to a man, with Venat at the heart, Zodiarks summoners also included those who would still live, as well as being immensely more powerful, thus does one leave some tempered and the other doesn’t. There’s no bad writing with this despite what you may be believe.

Firstly, the Ancients did not turn into Blasphemes…

And frankly, even the idea they would panic is silly…

My point is that if the Ancients wished to defeat Meteion they would need to face her in her Dynamis filled nest, and they already showed that they were unprepared for the despair they would inevitably face there, while being surrounded by Dynamis. They wouldn’t be able to as they were.

And they immediately went back on that sacrifice by offering innocent life and prayed to a god they created to make the world a “paradise.”

Again, all the information they needed had already been revealed to Venat...

Right, because the magicks we’ve seen in 14 are so easy to cast that they don’t require more than a passing understanding of their effects to mimic. Not to mention everything else potentially left unmentioned that could’ve come up in Zodiarks creation. I mean we didn’t even know about the Aether currents until the Watcher mentioned them.

All anybody would need to do is ask her "why" or ask what she knows and she would be in the middle of a lie...

Either the Ancients are capable of knowing when someone is lying or they’re not. If they are, then she must not of lied. If she did, then we have to take a lot of what we know of the echo and the Ancients and pitch it.

[Absimiliard]

And they immediately went back on that sacrifice by offering innocent life and prayed to a god they created to make the world a “paradise.”

There is zero evidence that the new life created by Zodiark was sapient. This being the case, there is nothing demonstrably wrong with sacrificing it to bring back the many friends and loved ones that gave up their lives to save the world. With the original sacrifices restored and the world healed, why would paradise have been a bad thing? Zodiark was more than powerful enough to forestall the end indefinitely, and the world during that age had more than enough aether to sustain him without any harm being done.

Venat, on the other hand, consigned her own people to what is essentially oblivion because of her own lack of hope. They never had a choice. Their flame was snuffed out needlessly, as it is very likely they would've found a solution to the Meteion problem in time.

[Cleretic]

There is zero evidence that the new life created by Zodiark was sapient. This being the case, there is nothing demonstrably wrong with sacrificing it to bring back the many friends and loved ones that gave up their lives to save the world.

Except that it goes against the entire mission statement of the Ancients in being 'the stewards of the star'. With that act, regardless of how independent that life truly is, they have gone from living for the planet to demanding the planet make sacrifices solely for them.

And as for the life itself... well, we've been to Elpis now. That doesn't tell us what specifically was being sacrificed, but it does give us an idea of what was out there to put to the blade. And... well, the answer isn't short. Birds, fish, giant butterflies, drakes, the Lupin. Familiars that are apparently indistinguishable from ourselves. The Ancient world wasn't exactly short on biodiversity. So given that, what do we know about what was planned to be sacrificed? Well, we know it was new, and we know it was notable enough to pick out--so it was probably something rather more exceptional than, say, a new species of cabbage. And, of course, we know that it was objectionable enough to force the hand of Hydaelyn.

I'm not going to say I know what they had their sights on. But I'm willing to bet that it was something truly special. And knowing the setting we're talking about, where we've befriended things like auspices and Bismarck, I would say that 'sapience' is the minimum.


EDIT: Also, I assume you put stock in Emet-Selch's words, and he himself says they wouldn't have found a solution to the End of Days. And he says that with the mother of all hindsight, freed from tempering, his blocked memories, and even the loneliness of his post-Sundering existence. If there was anyone in the universe that could say with authority that the Ancients could not have solved this problem, surely it's him, right?

[Absimiliard]

Is it truly demanding a sacrifice from the planet when the life brought forth by Zodiark wasn't even entirely a product of it to begin with? The Ancients sacrificed themselves to create Zodiark and later did it again to restore life to the world, meaning they did not need to utilize the planet's reserves of aether for the act in the first place. Thus, any life brought forth by Zodiark is, in my opinion, already removed from the natural order. Sacrificing this life to bring back the people that died to give Zodiark life just seems reasonable, and it in no way would harm the star. If anything, restoring the Ancient population would have been a great boon given their desire to resume living for the planet as they had.

[Cleretic]

Is it truly demanding a sacrifice from the planet when the life brought forth by Zodiark wasn't even entirely a product of it to begin with? The Ancients sacrificed themselves to create Zodiark and later did it again to restore life to the world, meaning they did not need to utilize the planet's reserves of aether for the act in the first place. Thus, any life brought forth by Zodiark is, in my opinion, already removed from the natural order. Sacrificing this life to bring back the people that died to give Zodiark life just seems reasonable, and it in no way would harm the star. If anything, restoring the Ancient population would have been a great boon given their desire to resume living for the planet as they had.

It's a little wonky that we don't exactly know if the life that sprung up after Zodiark was by Zodiark, or just... well, after Zodiark. Zodiark's presence does actually impact the biosphere (the Fisher Studium questline is explicitly about the fact that killing Zodiark messed with aether currents and how that screwed with marine life), so it could go either way.

But... aren't both angles reflecting pretty badly on the Ancients? If it's from the planet, again, they're going back on their whole mission statement and demanding tribute from the planet they're supposed to be nurturing. If it's from Zodiark, then they're going against Zodiark's plan. They asked him to fix the planet; he did, and then he made new life. Who are they to take this new life that he made and say 'we don't want this; eat it and give us back Hythlodaeus'? maybe Zodiark has a plan, and they're screwing it up.