This is getting ridiculous. (Endwalker MSQ and post MSQ spoilers)

[FrogDog]

I like how you elected to ignore the simple fact of:
- Ishgard Restoration (Which saw the emergence of an 'expert' system & several unique glamours)
- Ocean Fishing
- Non-combat relics
- Large scale raid encounter (which also included a normal and savage difficulty)
- Dalriada, and Castrum Lacus Litore
- Mahjong
- Crafter/Gatherer overhaul
- Additions to the Performance system
- Additions to BLU which at least saw encouragement in actually utilising it for older raids
- Introduction of Faux Hollows

Don't be intentionally ignorant on the content that was added. Sorry but no I don't get your point.

Doesn't change the fact that the things I mentioned aren't being expanded upon or are being cut. Apparently they're being cut in favor of Mahjong and Ocean Fishing though so it must be fine. We didn't get Hildy, we didn't get a completion quest for beast tribes, we didn't get Deep Dungeon.

I'll be as ignorant, intentionally or otherwise as I wish.

[Kaurhz]

snip.

If he's talking about this expansion and the upgrades we may or may not see then he's about 2 years too early to try and even bother making that assessment. How relics will be delivered is still up in the air, as are many of things that we may or may not see.

I don't disagree, in fact I agree that Faux Hollows aren't revolutionary, but at the very least it added some value into older content, whilst doing something that players could do on a regular basis. Essentially equivalent to Wondrous Tales, except at a bit of a higher difficulty, I suppose. Talking about spearfishing and Diving are both pointless topics because that has and to this day still remains a constant. That content was introduced and still is maintained. Collectible system in itself wasn't unique, but how they handled expert was fairly unique in that it require concise execution of abilities and unique material conditions - In this regard Experts are the staple of decent content with low development overhead.

The latter part just highlights my key points really, and in fact some of your own, in that Deep Dungeon itself doesn't really involve a unique set of mechanics, nor bosses/trash mobs. it's just a lovely little crawler with reused assets. The key value with deep dungeon is the replayability factor that it had, both in terms of levelling and for those seeking a challenge solo, or just for loot. In the sense I would argue the amount of development time was the same, but the investment factor players got from it varied massively. But that's just an example of the developers taking a risk and it not paying off. Clearly they have learnt their lesson as they openly admitted they didn't expect the response from the absence of Deep Dungeon. Hence their potential re-emergence. Eureka is the perfect example of quantity not always equating to quality. Bozja was developed almost entirely based on the player feedback from Eureka. Arguably outside of needless zone count (which can easily be attributed to CLL/Dalriada/Delubrum) Bozja objectively had more to offer. Eureka offered FATEs and a Bunny FATE with BA and logograms. Comparatively, Bozja offered practically everything mentioned in my last sentence, plus that of Critical Engagements and Solo encounters for those seeking a 'challenge', ohh and the lost actions system (basically rehashed logograms).

The latter part of this discussion has been enjoyable, really, and Merry Christmas.

Doesn't change the fact that the things I mentioned aren't being expanded upon or are being cut. Apparently they're being cut in favor of Mahjong and Ocean Fishing though so it must be fine. We didn't get Hildy, we didn't get a completion quest for beast tribes, we didn't get Deep Dungeon.


I'll be as ignorant, intentionally or otherwise as I wish.

See above + No it doesn't change the fact areas are seeing cuts, that wasn't my argument. My argument was those cuts are just being utilised elsewhere. Problem with this mentality is it just puts a hindrance on the ability to actually innovate, because the fear they aren't hitting the previous expansion quota in certain areas. Development is always a finite resource, and innovation or new content comes at the expense of seeing cuts elsewhere. Be it Deep Dungeon, or Island Sanctuary, for example.

I'm surprised it hasn't hit you yet, in that practically every monster found within deep dungeon is just a recycled asset in repeatable and recycled square rooms that semi-randomly generate floor layouts, with each room glaringly using the same layout. Honestly, the key to Deep Dungeon is not that it was a developmental miracle with extraordinary overhead, but simply that it has fantastic replayability value. That is the key with Deep Dungeon, and a point that I have never disputed or argued against. But don't pretend like Deep Dungeon was actually a masterpiece of uniquely created assets because every monster is just either an open world trash mob, or dungeon boss, and that includes the floor bosses themselves.

Regarding Hildibrand it has been stated in an interview that the content may have been getting stale, repetitive, and lacking, so yes, something else at the expense of Hildibrand, until they can actually innovate on it. If you don't like the content it was exchanged for then that is on you.

Do so as you wish, that is your prerogative but when you're caught in the act it just undermines your own argument. But hey, I like that you omitted the multi-tiered large scale raid encounter, Ishgard Restoration, and Dalriada/Castrum, and only managed to take Mahjong and Ocean Fishing from my response.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

If we aren’t going to say deep dungeon etc is very revolutionary then i think the same can be said for Ocean Fishing though, which really just introduced a mount, some minions and some titles. It’s basically just a boat model with fishing and some rainbow water occasionally with dolphins and seagulls in the background. Yes Bozja was supposed to be taking the good aspects of Eureka however they ended up going against their own statements in that you wouldn’t be required to step foot in Bozja to do the relic, and quote the opposite they actually locked the relic behind time gated raid instances (castrum). When they already got bad feedback on the time gated BA instance. I also don’t know what act you’re really getting on? He’s giving his opinion on the subject i don’t see how that’s an “act.” Irregardless, we lost allied beast tribe quests, hildibrand whether stale or not, pvp sets, end of expansion glam etc and to this day we still can’t get dyable dungeon glamour…i really don’t see how that’s so much to ask for 4 expansions into a games lifetime with so much money made. Like yes, we can say whether or not they’re adding more this expansion later on but that isn’t really the point right now as we’re talking about right now as in expansion release which is just as important. Not giving at the very least a dye set to the gear you’re reusing is lazy. Like i don’t know how it can be put in any other way. Not even role swapped. As for reused mobs we can say the same about bozja and eureka. In the end they’re just glorified fates, bozja took it a step forward with duels but those are few and far between. Eureka at least had the bunny fates to give incentive to exploring the map etc. Along with the two extra design work that went into the extra eureka maps(which there was actually supposed to be 5 apparently). Also, Mahjong was specifically added for the JP playerbase. It wasn’t something that gained a lot of traction in NA but they still pour resources into it which…is honestly the subject of an entire other debate but it is what it is.I completely understand that development is a finite resource, but i really don’t think it’s too much to ask 4 expansions later in a games lifetime to have less reused gear than the first expansion, and to at the very least make the reused gear dyable. At this point i question where exactly our money is going.

[SturmChurro]

...

I love that they can't even bring the good aspects from Bozja into the greater game, because of how stretched their battle team is. Something needs to happen though. I feel like many of these wow refugees will jump ship once they actually hit endgame, regardless of WoW's state. They will find out there isn't much to do, and increasingly less and less to collect.

[FrogDog]

I'm surprised it hasn't hit you yet, in that practically every monster found within deep dungeon is just a recycled asset in repeatable and recycled square rooms that semi-randomly generate floor layouts, with each room glaringly using the same layout. Honestly, the key to Deep Dungeon is not that it was a developmental miracle with extraordinary overhead, but simply that it has fantastic replayability value. That is the key with Deep Dungeon, and a point that I have never disputed or argued against. But don't pretend like Deep Dungeon was actually a masterpiece of uniquely created assets because every monster is just either an open world trash mob, or dungeon boss, and that includes the floor bosses themselves.

It's not full of unique assets, no, but you hit the nail on the head with what its main value was - replayability. For all the things you listed from the last expansion most of it was of niche interest.

Most people that do BLU content are done with it within a week or two, even fewer of them go for the Morbol mount. Gold Saucer has a lot of potential, wasted mostly, but potential nonetheless. They chose to give us Mahjong. I'll grant that Ishgard was the most unique and new thing they did in SHB but the zone attached to it, Diadem, was not new it was just repurposed but it definitely was the most solid bit of content added to SHB I would say.

Dalriada/Castrum are a wash I would say since they took the place of Eureka and Deep Dungeon in some respects and then the devs couldn't even end their storyline properly for some reason. Bozja/Zadnor were painfully dull zones to get through but the raids attached to them were good and I got some enjoyment out of them for the first month or two. I'm glad I didn't bother with any relics though, most of them were really ugly anyway.

btw you do make a lot of good points but I ain't reading all of them

[Shin96]

I personally want more content with replay value. You don't have to create new assets but you can utilize them effectively and design an instance from a gameplay perspective.

Minigames too. Something I can do with my friends that doesn't involve dailies and running content to level. Something to do while chilling mayhap?

[MoofiaBossVal]

I don't buy "they've run out of ideas". WoW has been running for 17 years and they're still pumping out dozens of new armor sets every patch. A raid set for each of the 12 classes (with 3 different variations like the paired down LFR version, the two recolored normal and heroic versions, or the fancy mythic version), armor for all 12 classes for doing rate PvP (with 2 different versions with the elite set being even more fancy), 4 different types of armor from questing (cloth/leather/mail/plate) with multiple different questing sets, 4 different types of dungeon gear with multiple different dungeon sets, 4 different types of casual PvP gear. And crafted gear. And then there's the cosmetic and achievement gear. Even if you remove the recolors, WoW easily has like 1,000+ armor sets.

FFXIV hasn't even been running for half as long as WoW, pumps out half as many armor sets, and they've somehow "run out of ideas"? A game in the same franchise as state of the art games such as FF7, FF8, FF10, FF12, or FF13, which looked mindblowing at the time? Get out of here.

The fact you've asked this question previously and the fact you ask it once again is almost baffling. There is no excuse here, but as I have told you, if you think this is new or even exclusive to this expansion then you haven't done your research since this is present as early as Heavensward (Most especially games within the same franchise), and aside from this? I don't know? Maybe the lead composer having health issues. Also FYI assuming we're referring to the same thing, that particular theme is actually the Primals Remix as opposed to being an outright reuse.

You thought you were clever with this one - But in reality it's a poorly made argument. 'lmao'

If Soken was suffering from health issues, or for whatever reason was unable to make a track for that dungeon, there is no reason why another composer could have been contracted to fill in. Soken has assistants, does he not? And Nobuo Uematsu is still on friendly terms with Square and can be contracted, among many other composers Square worked in the past like Tsuyoshi Sekito, Hamauzu, Sakimoto, etc.

The dearth of music was noticeable during the ShB patches. Varis didn't get a unique boss song and just reuses the generic ShB dungeon boss theme. Elidibus and Diamond Weapon didn't get unique second phase songs and just played the same song all of the way through the fight. The 5.4 and 5.5 dungeons that take place on the Source didn't get new dungeon boss music either.

Now that I think about it, perhaps Bozja reusing music from the FF12 remaster might have been to fill the gaps.

[Easayia]

Agreed. I think covid and Male Viera are to blame. However as a Bard my artifact glam I received is one of my favorites yet I changed the boots and gloves but it's soo good. I understand where the complaints come from but I also know we have crafted gear coming, and tome gear, and raid gear. I'm sure they have more to come patience people.....

[Iscah]

So what’s the excuse for them reusing a dungeon theme for an expert dungeon lmao. They couldn’t even give us a new expert dungeon theme for one of them.

To be clear – and since the thread is already marked for spoilers – we are talking about using Omega's theme in the Stigma Dreamscape?

It's a new version of the song, not a direct reuse of the same track from O11 or the Twinning's Omega/Syrcus Tower mashup, so I don't see it as much different to the other dungeons having remixes of pre-existing melodies. (Both essentially "Close in the Distance", though Smileton's via it already being remixed into the moon theme.)

It's a bit unfortunate that there have been logical reasons to reuse Omega's theme for endgame dungeons two expansions in a row and this one doesn't live up to the very hard-to-beat Twinning theme, but still it makes sense to find that music reappearing here.

[KizuyaKatogami]

To be clear – and since the thread is already marked for spoilers – we are talking about using Omega's theme in the Stigma Dreamscape?

It's a new version of the song, not a direct reuse of the same track from O11 or the Twinning's Omega/Syrcus Tower mashup, so I don't see it as much different to the other dungeons having remixes of pre-existing melodies. (Both essentially "Close in the Distance", though Smileton's via it already being remixed into the moon theme.)

It's a bit unfortunate that there have been logical reasons to reuse Omega's theme for endgame dungeons two expansions in a row and this one doesn't live up to the very hard-to-beat Twinning theme, but still it makes sense to find that music reappearing here.

Yeah that’s the one i was referring to. I don’t think other remixes have bothered me too much because they’re typically much different but this one to me just sounded the exact same, and yeah it probably doesn’t help that we had the twinning at this exact same point last expansion. Was hoping we’d have gotten something original for it.

Agreed. I think covid and Male Viera are to blame. However as a Bard my artifact glam I received is one of my favorites yet I changed the boots and gloves but it's soo good. I understand where the complaints come from but I also know we have crafted gear coming, and tome gear, and raid gear. I'm sure they have more to come patience people.....

I think people have been patient for pretty long now tbh. They've waited 6-7 months for this expansion. We'll see if the other gear is any better but even the current tome gear is just ripped from ff4, although i do agree the brd set looks amazing. Sadly they picked a female set to give to healers and casters so...rip males.