Tank healing is to high

[Praesul]

They can. The only bad thing are the overused multi-stack marks. But with a decent cd-management or even LB1 here and there it´s possible and not only on WAR.



Your claim doesn´t make much sense.

It would be the same if the game is getting tuned up to the point where tanks actually need some brain to use, as if the tanks are getting nerfed in their current form. It would be the same... but you´ve less work to adjust some classes instead of redesigning every encounter. On top the game would be like "You need a tank who´s able to make use of ALL his tools, otherwise they group will wipe permanently", if they adjust the encounters only. (I would prefer both combined, but that´s another thing.)

If the game is already easy (and believe me, it is 90% of the time) enough to not "require" healers then what difference does it make right now? People were already doing cheesy no healer runs last expansion, and the expansion before. It's not new.

Again, incoming damage should go up rather than things being taken away from other roles. It doesn't have to be drastic enough that casual players can't complete things, but enough to apparently force GCD heals out of players since that's seemingly what people want. Let's ignore the fact that tanks can't raise, don't have an rDPS increase, and don't have consistently available aoe healing.

You don't see me complaining when I get a normal mode encounter that has two tanks but no actual mechanics for the 2nd tank. I'm just there as a gimp DPS and that's fine, you're there for safety. In the same way that fates are so easy oftentimes you can do them without a tank or a healer. Game's not balanced around fates, and the flexibility of not need specific roles is a good thing actually. If you're a tank or a healer in a fate party you add way more safety though, and there's still value in having you around even if you're not "required".

[Risvertasashi]

If the game is already easy (and believe me, it is 90% of the time) enough to not "require" healers then what difference does it make right now? People were already doing cheesy no healer runs last expansion, and the expansion before. It's not new.

That doesn't mean we should make it worse. Lowering healing requirements even more (which this expansion did via massive tank healing buffs) is a step in the wrong direction, not the right one.

[ssunny2008]

If the game is already easy (and believe me, it is 90% of the time) enough to not "require" healers then what difference does it make right now? People were already doing cheesy no healer runs last expansion, and the expansion before. It's not new.

Again, incoming damage should go up rather than things being taken away from other roles. It doesn't have to be drastic enough that casual players can't complete things, but enough to apparently force GCD heals out of players since that's seemingly what people want. Let's ignore the fact that tanks can't raise, don't have an rDPS increase, and don't have consistently available aoe healing.

You don't see me complaining when I get a normal mode encounter that has two tanks but no actual mechanics for the 2nd tank. I'm just there as a gimp DPS and that's fine, you're there for safety. In the same way that fates are so easy oftentimes you can do them without a tank or a healer. Game's not balanced around fates, and the flexibility of not need specific roles is a good thing actually. If you're a tank or a healer in a fate party you add way more safety though, and there's still value in having you around even if you're not "required".

I know that´s the most content is trash anyway, but just scaling around with the content or coming with more instadeath-mechanics wouldn´t change anything but cause frustration to the most players. And no, it´s not a new thing. Tanks are broken for a long time now, EW just made it a step worse once again. Only 1 fight in Shb has forced the tanks to melt their defs into tankbuster, E12s and that was it.

So now... what might happen when you just flat scale the damage up from bosses? Tanks get more damage with autohits and through tankbusters. So you´ve to use all your cd´s. But is it good gameplay? And what if you miss 1 def? And what´s with the whole group once you fckd up? Just another insta-wipe because i played failed to press a button? It´s a bad design so far.

Every class should be able to have some self-sustain, some surviveability. But it shouldn´t be usable every 30s, shouldn´t outclass healer and it shouldn´t make a one-man-army out of it.
For example... stuff like the GNB invul would be perfect on a DPS-melee. Why? As emergency button when things go nuts, when the tank died and you might get slapped out of your shoes. But no, tanks which are already strong af, sitting on invul to play around swap-mechanics. Standard mechanics tanks should get used too, but rarely do, thx to invul.

Another one are all those new multitools. Why does such strong skills without any con even exist? What´s the purpose of them? Tanks are able to survive everything even with 5 vuln stacks, but they get such defs on top of it? Meanwhile healer and DPS classes die poorly to the next raidwide with 1 stack? How would it look like with more damage-incomes? That you need a Scholar and all his barriers at any aoe?

I´m really up for any new challenge since i could write novels about "what´s wrong with the games difficulty, balancing and learning curve", but i could also write novels "what´s wrong with tanks". We need more hardhitting content to force more out of tanks yes, but tanks also shouldn´t have more defs than their 123 rotation. Defs should be implemented in a more difficult rotation or locked behind ressources instead of just cooldowns. TBN is a great example for a great def, which is strong when it´s correct used, but will cost you everything if you fck it up. And ofcourse there shouldn´t be major defs to solo everything.
On top nearly every class should get some form of emergency skills and DPS should get more to do than being there to drift around with their rotation while relying on the healers at any raidwide. (And no, Chakra and Bloodbath are a joke. Roleskills overall are.)

If we´ve reached a state where tanks aren´t superior in everything, DPS can eat more than 1 autohit and healers actually use GDC heals, combined with some depth in mechanics, then everything would be great. But it´s not possible to adjust the content in such a direction, when tanks sit on superior tools and only instadeath mechanics are able to kill them.

[Praesul]

I don't see how it's tank's fault that incoming damage as a whole is so low that you can effectively heal an entire encounter with planned oGCDs. That's how it was before this expansion. Making my role less fun because you're not satisfied with yours is the worst way to go about it.

If you want more healing to do then beg the devs to make damage more threatening, don't gimp me because you're frustrated. You don't see me complaining when healers get damage reduction, especially when SGE has % reduction out the wazoo.

Should I be making threads advocating for the removal of all damage reducing effects in the game that aren't on tanks? Bye bye Addle, Feint, Temperance. Damage reduction is a tank's job, not the healer or DPS. :/

[Jybril]

But in turn, you're making my job less fun because yours is more fun to you.
Obviously, this means the jobs are not balanced and needs to be looked into.
No side should feel this way and now healers and tanks are fighting because of it.
Source: This entire thread.

[Praesul]

But in turn, you're making my job less fun because yours is more fun to you.
Obviously, this means the jobs are not balanced and needs to be looked into.
No side should feel this way and now healers are fighting tanks because of it.
Source: This entire thread.

No, the GAME needs to be looked at, not my role. I shouldn't have to perform worse so that YOU can have more fun. The game's damage should go up, not my healing go down.

The game was never designed with GCD heal spamming in mind regardless, this is nothing new. This is LITERALLY HOW IT'S ALWAYS BEEN.

[Halfgeeek]

No, the GAME needs to be looked at, not my role. I shouldn't have to perform worse so that YOU can have more fun. The game's damage should go up, not my healing go down.

The game was never designed with GCD heal spamming in mind regardless, this is nothing new. This is LITERALLY HOW IT'S ALWAYS BEEN.

In the PoV of game-dev time/resource investment, if one tank can trivialize dungeons, out of the 4 tanks available, the problem is that 1 tank, not a redesign of 3 other tanks and all the dungeons.

[Praesul]

In the PoV of game-dev time/resource investment, if one tank can trivialize dungeons, out of the 4 tanks available, the problem is that 1 tank, not a redesign of 3 other tanks and all the dungeons.

I've been trivializing dungeons with every single tank since ARR. The only time dungeons were threatening was that weird period where tank stance wasn't available on PLD until 40. They do not balance, and will not ever balance the game around dungeons. In fact that is the specific reason the devs have said they don't plan on adding extra content like WoW's Mythic+ dungeon system. The game is NOT balanced around 4 man content.

[Atreides]

In the PoV of game-dev time/resource investment, if one tank can trivialize dungeons, out of the 4 tanks available, the problem is that 1 tank, not a redesign of 3 other tanks and all the dungeons.

Thats what we're talking about the one tank that needs to be adressed is DRK because he is the only one that feels bad in dungeons.

[Jybril]

I can understand the resistance against turning healers into support DPS, and instead wanting the healing itself be intense and engaging, but I've yet to hear a single realistic way you could rebalance the game to work like that.

Take a look at the healer forums. We have asked this time and time and time again.
The only reason I even mentioned the Support DPS because they haven't done anything to remedy current issues.
So the next best thing is to just move us to DPS. *Shrugs* People already scream at us because we don't DPS enough.

No, the GAME needs to be looked at, not my role. I shouldn't have to perform worse so that YOU can have more fun. The game's damage should go up, not my healing go down.

The game was never designed with GCD heal spamming in mind regardless, this is nothing new. This is LITERALLY HOW IT'S ALWAYS BEEN.

You're right, it was "Press 1 DPS button forever as a healer" instead. So you get to use all your spells and skills and I use 1 and occasionally 2.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. We won't see eye to eye so I'll leave it at that. I just want healers to not be crap is all. I don't really want any role/job to be bad.