Zenos is a good character.

[Dragotani]

I want to preface this with that i respect everyone's right to an opinion. But i do feel strongly about this, very strongly. This may seem rambling, but it's effectively a mixture of different messages i've typed elsewhere about Zenos as a character, just collated together to make some manner of sense.

I think Zenos is a good character and villain in the contexts he is presented in SB and EW. I also believe the fanbase has taken him purely at face value, when he is much deeper than any of the villains that came before him on a personal level. And also much more entertaining to watch and listen to.

The character has simple motivations, but that doesn't lessen what he is or what he represents. Zenos at a core is clearly suffering from some sort of severe melancholy/depression. He had/has nothing to live for, he was raised to be a monster, to fight and kill, and only ever found joy in battle. By the time we meet him he's almost drained because it's no longer fun to him, he kills and kills and nothing ever satisfies him. So he meets us. Someone who can match him in battle, he's able to actually feel something again. In feeling that, feeling actual joy for what is probably the first time in years for him, he just kills himself. Because he thinks he will never be able to feel it again, he's so overcome with joy and then probably sadness that he has felt something he never can again.

And when the dude comes back he wants to relive that feeling, literally an addict chasing a high. He's a shattered reflection of not only the player someone who just fights bigger and badder things for the fun of it until there is nothing left, but he also can be used as a mirror to characters like Hauchefaunt. Like Hauchefaunt he's utterly devoted to the WoL, almost obsessed. And both charaters are willing to die for them. Hauchefaunt willing to take a killing blow for us, and Zenos wanting us to effectively kill him.

In EW, more than once, he speaks about his perspective on life. How it was a suffocating muck, how he didn't understand the things others pursued, or found happiness in. That only one thing gave him that same spark, made him feel.

His motivations are just: Fight WoL, obviously. But it's his characterisation that is important to him, it's how he expresses that motivation, and how we drive him. I very much think that they are going to point out that our character would have wound up exactly like Zenos if it wasn't for the people around us. Someone who was just pointed at Primals and told to kill, fighting over and over again until there was nothing, not even satisfaction.

[Dragotani]

Part 2:

The only thing setting us apart from Zenos was that the WoL had people that cared about them.

And this continues into EW. EW is about standing with others to forge past despair to achieve a spark of hope and happiness, Zenos pursues his own hope, but forsakes that which would give him what he wants. resulting in despair. It's something the character comes to acknowledge, and accept as the story nears it's end. He muses on this, and actually develops as a character while still maintaining his core. Even Zenos accepted that which the main characters speak about. He decides to take into account what Alisaie said to him, and helps someone else, with no attachments, no expectation that he will force the WoL into doing what he wants.

He cordially goes through Sharlayan customs, gorges on the Mothercrystal, appears to help us, and when that's done, offers to let us leave if we so wish. And he finally reaches that hope he had been chasing, as his soul burns out alongside ours.

I think it's a beautiful end to one of the most entertaining characters in this game.

Also i think people are a bit too strung up on powerscaling, it's just kind of unfun after a while. But Zenos' power imho is fairly well explained all things considered. Garlean trained from birth > Aether powered swords > Resonant > Shinryu > Ascian powers > Souls of the slain > The Mothercrystal > Dynamis dimension.

Thank you for listening, have a nice morning.xoxo

[MirronTulaxia]

I wish that I had that perspective because it would be nice to not have what for me is a blemish on the story. But honestly most of that doesn’t resonate for me or how I view the WoL. I’m sure something along those lines may be the intent, but it’s simply too forced, especially for what is supposed to be a blank slate character.

[StriderShinryu]

The issue I see here is that you're taking your particular WoL as THE WoL. Zenos may be a reflection of your WoL but the WoL as presented in the game is a blank slate character. Everyone's WoL has the potential to be completely different in their feelings and motivations, which is why a defined "mirror character" doesn't work really work.

I don't think anyone is saying that Zenos doesn't have a background that leads him into being the character he ended up as. The problem is that the story as written basically stopped doing anything with him when he died the first time. Everything that happened after that point involving him could have easily been written to be done by someone else, and Zenos himself was just shown to be sitting bored on a throne almost all of the time (when he wasn't barely hiding a hate boner for the WoL). The potential for Zenos to be an interesting character was maybe there but the Zenos we actually saw and interacted with in the game itself, well, wasn't. In fact, we had better both "crazy evil" and "scary physical presence" characters running along side Zenos which actually made his blah presence even more blah.

[Atmaweapon510]

The issue with power-scaling isn't that Zenos gets progressively stronger, it's that by proxy the WoL gets so much stronger for no real reason. Nearly everything beforehand wasn't a dbz powerscaling issue, it was having the right counters or weapons or temporary powerups to deal with the situation at hand. When the WoL becomes stronger than the strongest Garlean for whatever reason, then the threat level of literally every other Garlean drastically drops and the story then has to shift the goal posts for threats farther and farther until it gets to the point the WoL should be able to just flick away anything that comes their way with impunity.

[Loggos]

The issue I see here is that you're taking your particular WoL as THE WoL. Zenos may be a reflection of your WoL but the WoL as presented in the game is a blank slate character. Everyone's WoL has the potential to be completely different in their feelings and motivations, which is why a defined "mirror character" doesn't work really work.

I don't think anyone is saying that Zenos doesn't have a background that leads him into being the character he ended up as. The problem is that the story as written basically stopped doing anything with him when he died the first time. Everything that happened after that point involving him could have easily been written to be done by someone else, and Zenos himself was just shown to be sitting bored on a throne almost all of the time (when he wasn't barely hiding a hate boner for the WoL). The potential for Zenos to be an interesting character was maybe there but the Zenos we actually saw and interacted with in the game itself, well, wasn't. In fact, we had better both "crazy evil" and "scary physical presence" characters running along side Zenos which actually made his blah presence even more blah.

100% this.

Like I said in the other thread, it’s completely fair if players see themselves in Zenos and like him. If he is your mirror, then absolutely go for it. It’s in no way my place to judge this.

But I honestly take some issue with people saying he is everyone's mirror.

In the end, that is the tl,dr of my position. Everything I think about this topic can be summarised with this sentiment.


(If you want to torture yourself with a needlessly long break-down why I think so, then I present you with this monstrosity.)

In addition to what has been stated above, the idea that he is every WoL's mirror also comes with the perhaps unintentional implication that if we don’t like this analogy, we have probably not entirely understood the story or we are trying to deny that part.

That’s why I strongly disagree with this point.

The I also believe the fanbase has taken him purely at face value, when he is much deeper than any of the villains that came before him on a personal level.

Whether he is deeper than other villains, is very subjective in my eyes. There’s no right or wrong here. But the depth you appreciate in Zenos I see more in other villains.

And I think most people understand what the game tries to do, it’s just not working for some of them.
I understand that the game wants to set him up as our counterpart in battle. The fact that we almost die as equals makes it crystal clear.
But for me the intention alone to tell this story doesn’t automatically make it a good story.


The same goes for his background: You are probably completely right about his background story.

But for my personal enjoyment of a character, it’s not just enough for me to know this information. I would like for it to be presented compellingly so that I can experience it within the story.
Good writing is very subjective. I’m completely aware of that. But for me, a story is first and foremost a "live" experience. It’s not just the “what”, it’s also the “how”. It’s not just a summary but a means to experience the events first hand as if you were right in the middle of them.

How a certain plot-point or a certain character are written matters a lot for me to “take the intention of the writers seriously” so to speak because they found a credible way to integrate it into the experience, i.e., the story.

A good example is Urianger, imo: Up to ShB he was very bland, in my eyes. When he loses Moenbryda in ARR it was kind of underwhelming because I didn’t feel enough for him or how his loss was presented to be really affected by it. The story hadn’t turned his character and his emotions into a compelling experience.
Now in EW this is completely different. The scene where he meets Moenbryda’s parents is probably my favourite scene in the whole expansion because it is so well-crafted.
The topic is still completely the same. But the delivery is entirely different. This leads to a completely different experience and for me to a completely different level of depth.


So, knowing that Zenos probably has a certain background does nothing for me to appreciate his character because for me the experience I have with him in the game is exactly as @StriderShinryu describes.
Whenever I actually meet him, I feel like I’m presented with the narrative of what for me is not the expression of a deeply broken character (although that may be the intention) but the shallow and one-dimensional depiction of a motive (embodiment of ultimate battle lust, alleged mirror to the WoL) in the body of a perpetually bored, uninspiring and sometimes clownishly arrogant shell instead of a fully fleshed-out person.

But again, that is just how I perceive his writing. My point is not that I think this opinion is objective or that people who feel differently about his writing are in turn wrong.
I just try to argue against this idea that the fanbase who dislikes him takes him at face value and that he is objectively a good mirror for The WoL of FF14.



For example, this is a sentiment I heavily disagree with:

I very much think that they are going to point out that our character would have wound up exactly like Zenos if it wasn't for the people around us.

This is a big blanket statement in my eyes that tries to press every person’s WoL into a narrow mold and fails to account for the big difference personality makes in this scenario.
I do not think at all that every person would have ended up like Zenos. Some definitely might have. But other people might have such a different approach to life, a different approach to battle even, that it leads them into a different direction than becoming Zenos 2.0.

Zenos externalises his problems by becoming aggressive and violent (and very, very bored).
Other people might internalise this loneliness and become depressed (but not violent). Some might actually start to resent fighting because they are repeatedly sent on these dangerous missions but they are all alone. Maybe they would give up on being a hero and an adventurer all together. Some might be able to shoulder it and just keep going.

I think there are a myriad of ways to react to this situation just as in real life different people can react very differently to the same challenges and problems.


(Also, ironically the game actually gives us an explanation why we are a hero in the first place. We are a part of Azem and the defining trait of Azem is to always want to help and solve others’ problems.
Acc. to the game you help precisely because of the well-being of others and not because you hunt for the next battle.
This is also an interpretation that the game forces on The WoL so I completely understand if people are annoyed by it. If you are not the type of person that would throw themselves into a volcano to help others then this characterisation feels very superimposed, as well.)



Lasty, I think that Zenos does not just embody “the darkness” within us as other people have suggested before. Zenos has very specific dark traits that do not necessarily correspond to the dark traits and aspects of just any other person.
Even when I envision my char as the edgiest, most demonic, annoying anti-hero I still feel as if what makes her “dark” has nothing to do with what Zenos embodies, hence he cannot act as a mirror for it. He is completely unrelated to my character’s particular “darkness”.

Also i think people are a bit too strung up on powerscaling, it's just kind of unfun after a while. But Zenos' power imho is fairly well explained all things considered. Garlean trained from birth > Aether powered swords > Resonant > Shinryu > Ascian powers > Souls of the slain > The Mothercrystal > Dynamis dimension.

In itself I agree with this scaling of his power. But considering Dynamis runs on thoughts and emotions I would argue that we should have an intense emotional high after defeating one of the most powerful beings in existence (how is that for battle lust), saving the universe (and particularly our friends and loved ones) and even freeing Meteion. So, personally I would still feel like the Dynamis power of our own state of mind (in addition to our absurdly high normal power level) should be able to blast Zenos into the horizon. But that’s just my interpretation.

(Also, I would say in this case Shinryu and the Mothercrystal don’t constitute two different sources of power. Rather, Zenos uses the Mothercrystal to summon Shinryu. So, I think the primal is the manifestation of the Mothercrystal’s power, not an extra power boost on top of the crystal.)


I think the powercreep of our character is a serious problem and I know the writer will eventually just have to downgrade us “by force”/for the sake of convenience again because otherwise the story can’t really continue. So, in itself I understand that we also need “normal” foes who present a challenge to us.

But for my taste the timing was not very good. The crass juxtaposition, this direct sequence of events with completely different tones in THE most important moment of Endwalker made it feel so misplaced for me.

Regardless whether it is Zenos or another character, I wish they would have challenged our WoL with a “normal” foe before the finale and played a lot more on Dynamis during the last fight. I wish they would have showed some epic large-scale “the whole planet prays and is with us” (not just the scions) scene before the Endsinger fight to really emphasise that WE are not that strong but that we are just channeling the hopes, prayers and the will to live of the entire planet.

[Ashgarth]

The issue with power-scaling isn't that Zenos gets progressively stronger, it's that by proxy the WoL gets so much stronger for no real reason. Nearly everything beforehand wasn't a dbz powerscaling issue, it was having the right counters or weapons or temporary powerups to deal with the situation at hand. When the WoL becomes stronger than the strongest Garlean for whatever reason, then the threat level of literally every other Garlean drastically drops and the story then has to shift the goal posts for threats farther and farther until it gets to the point the WoL should be able to just flick away anything that comes their way with impunity.

Last time we fought Zenos directly before the end was pre-Ardbert fusion. So we didnt get stronger "for no real reason"

[Acelyn]

Zenos is a great character.

I don't see him as a mirror though, I see his character as pure, he just wants to fight us and that's it, and I respect that.

All the other enemies and even good guys(you venat), have such epic scope, and myriad reasons to do what they're doing and it gets tiresome as they constantly realize "maybe this isn't right, oh! Yes it is". Not Zenos, he just wants to throw hands.

Also when jullis confronts him and ask why he's doing what he's doing he replies with "if I had a good reason, would that be ok"(I don't remember perfectly), for me that was the strongest line in the expansion, because there are so many good people with reasons that will end up killing so many others, so really "what is a good reason?", Like if he spouted off, FOR GARLEMALD, would jullis just smile and be like ok awesome?

I hope we get another Zenos type character in the future, simple, lean, focused.

[Vexander]

Zenos is... to me he's a very, very watered-down Luca blight from Suikoden 2.

If no one is familiar with the Suikoden games, Luca Blight was the Prince of a kingdom your character comes from. He is... a madman with an unquenchable desire to burn and slaughter. The game literally started with him slaughtering your Youth Brigade to blame it on the City-States (the nation he likes to sharpen his sword on). He's unapologetic, without mercy, and enjoys every single moment he sews chaos and destruction. The generals around him ultimately know he'll run the kingdom into the ground and destroy it in the pursuit of killing as many people as possible.

And his last words? A laugh, and a boast. "It took hundreds of you to kill me, but I slaughtered you pigs by the thousands! Killing me will not end this war. No, you'll only have a kingdom crying out for vengeance!" And the prospect genuinely made him happy.

Zenos feels like Luca Blight with no passion, and no real motive. I think that's why I don't appreciate him as a villain more. That and his strange insistence he's like the WoL. He's projecting very hard.

[kpxmanifesto]

Honestly, I respect Zenos as a character more than I do Meteion.