Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[Elysidelphi]

That, yes.

Then what about Venat? She is sundered, right? Because we've always been told about the "3 Unsundered", Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch. There was never talk that there might be other Unsundered.

So if Venat is sundered, then it stands to reason that her soul shards have been reborn as people on the Source and its reflections, right? So who are they?

Oh and since you mentioned Hythlodaeus not recognising Zenos's soul, do you have any ideas/theories whose soul Zenos inherited?

[Rosenstrauch]

Yes, Venat is sundered. But, and I can not stress this enough: You need to die in order to reincarnate. You can't have your original self and your reincarnation alive at the same time. Each reflection of the Source is possessed of a shard of Zodiark. Each shard of Zodiark is kept in check by a shard of Venat. Each rejoining puts one shard of everyone back together with their Source counterpart, including Venat. So even though seven of her shards are dead, it's in the same sense that Ardbert is dead: They're rejoined with Source!Venat, just like Ardbert is rejoined with us.

As late as the Hydaelyn Trial in Endwalker, Venat is still alive. There's no wiggle room for that.

Look, I get it. Back in Shadowbringers I was half-convinced that Zenos would turn out to be the reincarnation of Hythlodaeus, just because of the dramatic irony of a former beloved friend becoming a doggedly persistent nemesis. But I was also half-convinced Elidibus would turn out to be Hythlodaeus, having taken up the seat after the original sacrificed himself to become Zodiark. Neither of these came to pass: Elidibus turned out to be Zodiark, or at least the most important part of him: His Heart. And Hythlodaeus was among the voluntary sacrifices made to empower Zodiark to halt the Final Days—and was still with Him all the way up to His death in Endwalker.

Given that Zenos had to steal copy the Echo in order to gain it himself, it's arguable that he's nobody's reincarnation, but instead a new soul altogether. Which, frankly, I like better for his character. Zenos as a self-made man is infinitely more interesting to me than Zenos as some star-crossed destined chosen one.

[SaberMaxwell]

Wait, when was Venat sundered? Venat, being Hydaelyn's heart, just can very much imagine not being in the blast radius of her own attack. It would also be counterintuitive to sunder herself, no?

[Elysidelphi]

So, I really, really must post this in here as I feel that it is extremely relevant to this topic.

I want to thank Nighttimebunny for posting the link and drawing my attention to it, and I also want to thank EgoCollective's on Reddit for writing this beautiful, in-depth post.

All the credit for this particular post goes to EgoCollective's on Reddit.

I only want to share their work with the rest of you.

I also highly, highly recommend that you use the link and read the post for yourself as I won't be able to post/quote everything.

Here is the link:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...p8CwxWehk/edit

"Thoughts about Zenos

As the title may imply, I am of two minds as to whether we are going to get him back. I’d say there is a rather good chance for some reasons, but other reasons have me questioning this and in this text block I hope to write out pretty much all the arguments I have for both theories. I want to try and approach this not as a Zenos enjoyer but as someone who is well versed in the lore of FF, FFXIV, and with literary tools in general, and hope that rather than making any specific argument I can present information needed for others to formulate their own informed opinion, however my bias should also be clear here.

Arguments for “Rebirth”
This should be considered a compiled ‘argument’ for ‘rebirth’ of some form. This is not to give a definitive as to ‘when’ this will happen nor in what form (Another shard, his void avatar, etc). I will say here, that if Zenos is reborn it cannot nor will it be as an antagonist in the way we’ve seen him. If he is to be an antagonist, he will need an entirely new motive (Which I feel will basically be a new character). If he is to keep remnants of his current motive, it can only be as an anti hero or reluctant partner.

First I will start with a literary arguments for why his story is not over and where he would fit into the literary work:

1. We do not have anyone that fills the ‘antihero’ role. The closest we really come is Fordola, and even she doesn’t really fit. People may point to Estinien, but he has many of the traits of a conventional hero, and lacks those of a traditional antihero. Being antisocial does not make you an antihero. An antihero traditionally performs noble actions but without noble reasons. This would fit Zenos and already defines what he did at the end of Endwalker. This is why Zenos would fit this role where no one else currently does.

2. It goes against the entire theme of the Endwalker expansion to leave Zenos alone in the cold and doesn’t even work as a cautionary tale. Let me explain. The entire point of Endwalker is hope, escape from despair and forgiveness. Leaving someone alone at the edge of the universe flies in the face of all of this. You could say that this is a cautionary tale based on what Alisiae said to Zenos, specifically that if he did not make the connections, he would be left alone with no one wanting to deal with him. That’s well and good, but a cautionary tale must teach a lesson, and that really doesn’t work here. We know Zenos is largely the way he is based on childhood neglect, actual mental trauma/depression/anhedonia, and very likely actual experimentation, even if the WoL/Scions do not know this. Secondly, not ten seconds before the last scene in Endwalker, our Scions are telling actual robots who were built for and enacted multiple planetary genocides that it was “not their place to judge [The Omicrons]” and that they could simply “change” and become different. Then we go on to help them in the post credits. If those robots can change, everyone can. Our WoL is known to give pretty much everyone multiple chances at Redemption. More over, Zenos was changing after Alisiae spoke to him. He was starting to become introspective, he bargained with Krile rather than using his usual means (hatred and physical force) to get what he wanted. He offered us help, he changed from wanting his moment and his sole pleasure to wanting to grant our moment and the single pleasure I have to share. Where the first time he died blissful, sure of feeling something ‘real’ and in a state of ‘transcendence’, his second death was doubtful, introspective, confused, and incomplete. Even his last words were incomplete. In an expansion whose entire theme is ‘hope’, why damn one specific character, put up a hand and say “No, not you.” ?

Next, I will make a pragmatic argument that is basically this: You don’t give the guy an entire rework, CGI art, a significant part in the trailers, a card on the Key Characters page, and merchandise space if you don’t plan on using the character more than you already did. If you’re admitting that he is some sort of ‘fan favorite’ as his addition to Dissedia aside Y’shtola would suggest, then I’d argue that the level of his inclusion was actually a step back from Stormblood if this is all you planned to do with him given the below:

So! lets get into the crux of the reasoning for this. Mainly, we have to admit two things:

1. Square Enix/the writers for FFXIV rarely if ever like to let a character or a mystery go to waste.
2. Zenos has had none of his associated mysteries and odd connections/loose ends answered, and, in fact, has had more added since Stormblood and Shadowbringers.

Since we are using the ‘mysteries’ surrounding the character as the crux of the argument for, let me recap what we have in the order that they appeared:

1. “...Not to mention an invaluable test subject” - This is something that Elidibus stated to Varis after his son ‘died’ in Stormblood. While this could refer to the Resonant, we know for a fact now that that knowledge survived and was used in Bozja and elsewhere. If the Resonant can be applied to others, it does not make Zenos invaluable, even if he is further along in the Resonant than other subjects. So why is he ‘an invaluable test subject?”

2. “I have always dreamed of it. The city, nay, the entire world ablaze” - In the post Shadowbringers patches, it is revealed that Zenos has had dreams of the Final Days, presumably since childhood. Oddly, some have noted that Zenos’ and Venat walk similar paths. I will let you decide:

Zenos - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5TxlTSV7rE&t=7325s

Venat - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwTcMt6k8FQ


3. “[Aside] Could Emet-Selch have found a way? …Precious few have memories of the Final Days” - After Fandaniel hears Zenos’ recant the fact that he dreams of the Final Days, he said this. This, like the above is never elaborated upon.
It’s not simply that they dropped the plot line and hoped we’d forget. The first cutscene inunless Endwalker that has Zenos in it directly references it.


4. Yoshi P , in interviews, told us to ‘pay special attention’ to Zenos’ reaper avatar, and said that while the Hydaelyn Zodiark Saga does not depend on it there ‘could be a reason’ for the class change. His exact words were:

“It’s not really the case that we wanted Reaper to have a big role in the story, or have a big impact in the story, but it might be that there is some reason why Zenos has gone down that path,” Yoshida said.
“So of course, since Zenos is a Reaper, he would obviously be using an avatar,” he continued. “Zeno’s only friend is the Warrior of Light so in that respect maybe his avatar is some sort of variation of our Warrior of Light. (laughing) But please be sure to, I haven’t put it clearly here, look forward to seeing what happens with Zenos.” (NME: https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news...walker-3068718)

He mentions this a second time in the Zepla interview:
[Translation]: “But of course this time around in the expansion its not the Warrior of Light who is taking on that job, its Zenos. You know Zenos the reaper. So that means he must have an avatar. Hmmm, I would like you to focus on just what or …yeah or what is my avatar. Well he might finally have a second friend.


Now this could refer to Zenos literally taking the WoL’s body as an ‘avatar’ but I don’t think that lines up with the context of what is being said. This to me feels more “Ive got friends on the other side” so I did take a literal closer look at the Avatar and this is what I found.

Now let’s see if we can peek under those eyes (Which should be noted are not the Avatar’s own hands, but someone else’s/a different part of the model)


While I can’t be certain I feel very confident that this avatar is Zenos after a fashion. The facial structure, nose, hair and eyes are almost spot on. Either way, the reason that Yoshi P mentioned above is never mentioned in game. We hardly see the avatar well enough in cutscenes to ‘get a closer look’, and his reason is never mentioned in the game beyond a single cutscene where he says something after the Zodiark fight about searching for a power mightier than Shinyru. Was this the power of the Void?

5. Tied in with the above, on the moon, there is a single text dialogue box I’d like to focus on. It is when Zenos is first seen in his ‘full’ reaper form, though he is blurred by a red light:

Notice that the text box says simply “Zenos”. This is the first and only time in this expansion that this happens, but it is not the first time we’ve seen this. The other time we’ve seen this is when it was not Zenos but Elidibus in Zenos’ body, indicating that the character we were speaking with was not necessarily Zenos. Now, while the dialogue here seems Very Zenosish, it can be implying that Zenos is at the very least sharing control with some other entity

CORRECTION: There is technically a second time in this expansion that this happens. Which is when he is possessing/in control of Shinryu

This is odd , because in Stormblood when he was possessing Shinryu, he was still Zenos yae Galvus, and it is not a text box UI choice because in the final duty he is back to being Zenos viator Galvus….so…is he really saying We, WoL and he? Hmm. The more I consider this text the more I don't believe he's referring to the endsinger at all. He read never hunting that…. So who is we if the person fleeing is the WoL……..

6. When we return from the moon and speak to Lucia in Garlemald, we learn that Zenos has been given a new name to indicate that he is an enemy of the state. Now, they could have drawn from a number of words and titles from actual Roman legions/history to indicate ‘exile, betrayer, defector’ etc. They went with viator. Viator has a very specific meaning in Latin, which is Traveler, and Zenos is the only person to receive this title. Gaius , who is believed to have killed Varis, did not receive this title. Maxima, who defected to the Eorzean side, did not receive it. Lucia herself, who was a defected spy, did not receive it; Only Zenos. As we all know, Traveler has a very important connotation in this game as the Seat of Azem. This is never explained or mentioned in detail.

7. After the End scene, it is left unclear if Zenos, in fact, helped us escape. There are two dialogue options and quests that leave this somewhat open ended. The first is Urianger’s dialogue.

It is mentioned briefly that the Scions did not cause this; they were waiting on you to follow Meteion. This had to have come from someone within the realm of Dynamis, thus it is left open ended if the prayer was yourself (The WoL) or another (Who could have only been Zenos). Those are the only two options.
The final duty at least implies that you are both utilizing dynamis in this space and that it reacts to your fervent desires.


Secondly, There is the Omicron quest for the expert dungeon, “Where no Loporrit has gone before” Here is the pertinent dialogue:


I’ve checked, and no where in G’raha’s words to “Sir” was the specific command “Live” given. Also, during the fight with the Endsinger, there was no specific command “Live” from the Scions. Finally, Meteor did not specify that either, only that the way was going to be opened up. This, like the above, is therefore left to interpretation in that it could have been your wish or another’s. The reason some make the argument that it was Zenos is the significance of the word that calls back to his Stormblood mantra “Endure, Survive, Live”. More interesting:, Hydaelyn and Krile before you depart tell you to endure, Thancred’s word to breathe life into Ultima Thule is survive, and this command was live. At the very least it is an interesting literary throwback.

In summation, we have a good 6 mysteries and 1 purposefully vague ending surrounding Zenos that have not been explained up to and until the time of death."

[Elysidelphi]

Continuing...

"Arguments Against:

Arguments against Zenos coming back mostly have to do with implications and guesses as to what may occur in the writing room. First, it is known that Japanese audiences love Zenos while Western audiences are very polarized about him. Some love him and some despise him.

With that the largest argument is that Zenos already returned from the dead once and doing so again in the same form or fashion may cheapen a character who is already on such ‘thin ice’ with a large portion of the player base. The writers may take this into account.

Similarly, the scene did include a ‘death exhale’ and the journal at the end sounds rather ‘complete’

It could be that the writers seem to have believed they offered him a ‘satisfactory closure’ in that he got what he wanted (I question the logic of giving basically an addict his fix and then leaving him to die but hey) , but I would then argue to the above. Why not just leave him dead in Stormblood where he was happier in his death? If this is truly it and none of the questions are answered, you would leave many fans asking what the point of him coming back at all was, since it cannot really be disputed that he was a B plot within Endwalker regardless of how the trailers hyped him up.

A second potential argument is how well the Endwalker scene lines up with his short story, The Hunt Begins. They are basically poetic book ends, which would speak to finality. From The Hunt Begins:

"And he settled into bed, he prayed as earnestly as a boy of his years might that one day he would cross paths with a worthy foe and feel such exhilaration as the heroic epics promised. And then, with a sigh, he closed his eyes and knew the soundest sleep he had ever known."

This does not 100% have to mean death, but literary book ends often do tie up this way, and honestly this is probably the strongest argument for leaving him dead that I have.

The other potential argument to leave him there is that the writers themselves were undecided or there was some dispute over what to do with the character. Concernedly, this already happened once with the Garlemald plot lines as a whole. We saw this with Bozja ending the way it did and the writer stating rather coldly that the plotline was over. It ended before it felt ‘ready’. Furthermore, we don’t see anything but the barest mention of Nerva yae Galvus OR Titus yae Galvus in Garlemald even after doing all the Side quests. It could be that someone or a group of someones in the writing room really did not want to deal with Garlemald anymore, nor its Crown Prince. I have seen speculation stating that Ishikawa specifically did not want to write Zenos into the story because he was not a character she created, but that Yoshi P specifically likes him a lot so there was some discrepancy there, but I saw absolutely no evidence to this point.

The last argument against bringing him back or bringing him back in current form or right now is power creep. We needed to be rid of Zenos In his current form right now because of the ‘soft reset’ the team is speculated to have in mind as the WoL, as Azem, travel to the places Emet-Selch mentioned. Since the story is likely to be more localized and less world ending, it would not make sense to have this all powerful being on either side during these story phases. However, my counter argument potentially for that is that it does nothing to relieve our own power creep as being more powerful than Zenos. Furthermore, as the only other person (besides Emet) actively realizing we are at the core, an adventurer, it would make the most logical sense to have him along for the ride in some sense. Maybe that’s just wishful thinking…

That’s..really the only arguments I can think of against bringing him back. There is no in story reason not to resolve the mysteries that he would need to be alive in some form (Again, different shard, Void avatar, etc) to resolve. The only arguments not to is because the fans don’t like it, or the writers don’t like it, or they wrote themselves into a corner and need to relieve power creep. I would be very interested in knowing which changes Yoshi P had to make in the last two weeks and if they affected the end. However, it is said they have 1-2 years in advance planned for the story at all times.

With that said, I will leave you with one last interesting tidbit from a Japanese interview from Yoshi P from May 2021, and let you decide. I would hope that the game’s story was finished by then…but who knows. It could be that we will never see what the original intent was..or it could be baseless worry. Here it is:

When asked in this game.watch interview about 6.1 and beyond, Yoshi P Said:

Of course, I have a plan for what kind of story to draw after 6.1, and who will play a central role in adventuring with the warrior of light. However, how to deliver it to everyone depends on the tension of the "Akatsuki Finale". In other words, as one of the players, when I played the game, I had this kind of emotion, so I haven't experienced how to deliver this kind of delivery from 6.1, so I developed a little more. I think that various ideas will come out and decide if it progresses.

(Source https://game.watch.impress.co.jp/doc...w/1324782.html)


PART 2: Reaper Questline Points of Interest

In this section of the document, I will be writing interesting things I’ve learned in reading and searching through the Reaper quest dialogue chains and journal entries . These will have to do with Garlemald as well as Zenos and the Reaper and be in no order, just interesting tidbits as I find them:

So did Zenos just do what I like to call the “River Tam” thing where he watched the talent and then learned it? Who helped him contact the Void? Amon/Fandaniel? Or did the Void come to him?

This whole bit here is just amazing. I’m assuming Solus basically showed himself as Hades and gave the Trainer’s grandpop a good old scare. Could Zenos be aware of this?


This is important. The void creature struck when the man was his weakest. I feel like this is setting us up for what will happen to Zenos post Endwalker. If this is the case we have two options

a. Antagonist “Zenos” , but not. Basically using his voice and appearance but it’s not him and/or

b. The above, but with the added bonus of Zenos’ spirit hanging around somewhere in some form. Either way in order for the character to fufill all of its outlying mysteries and not get boring, I believe we need to eventually hit the Anti Hero angle, or else it’s just going to get old fast.

5. So here is the other interesting possibility. Rather than taking possession of his flesh, the void sent could have taken the hit for him. Why it would do this rather than possession is beyond me. They don’t explain why here either.

This is all I have from the Reaper questline."


Again, the link for all of the above is:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...p8CwxWehk/edit

From EgoCollective's on Reddit.

Thank you also to Nighttimebunny for showing me this link. It's extremely well written and makes some excellent points.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.


PS: EgoCollective's from Reddit, if by some miracle you happen across this thread and these words, I would LOVE to talk to you about Zenos.

[nighttimebunny]

Sorry, just a quick little correction, their name is EgoCollective, I think I did a typo last night on accident. :P
I was so happy reading their small essay, it makes so many amazing points.

I really enjoy this quote from Yoshida: "Of course, I have a plan for what kind of story to draw after 6.1, and who will play a central role in adventuring with the warrior of light. However, how to deliver it to everyone depends on the tension of the "Akatsuki Finale". In other words, as one of the players, when I played the game, I had this kind of emotion, so I haven't experienced how to deliver this kind of delivery from 6.1, so I developed a little more. I think that various ideas will come out and decide if it progresses."

But can you tell me what Akatuski Finale means? Is that Endwalker as a whole, or the very last part of Endwalker? I really think he's hinting at Zenos being an antihero in 6.1+ here, so I am extremely hopeful!

[Elysidelphi]

Sorry, just a quick little correction, their name is EgoCollective, I think I did a typo last night on accident. :P
I was so happy reading their small essay, it makes so many amazing points.

I really enjoy this quote from Yoshida: "Of course, I have a plan for what kind of story to draw after 6.1, and who will play a central role in adventuring with the warrior of light. However, how to deliver it to everyone depends on the tension of the "Akatsuki Finale". In other words, as one of the players, when I played the game, I had this kind of emotion, so I haven't experienced how to deliver this kind of delivery from 6.1, so I developed a little more. I think that various ideas will come out and decide if it progresses."

But can you tell me what Akatuski Finale means? Is that Endwalker as a whole, or the very last part of Endwalker? I really think he's hinting at Zenos being an antihero in 6.1+ here, so I am extremely hopeful!

Thank you again so, so much for sharing that link with me. I loved reading it, it's so well-written and it gives me hope that Zenos will be back. Thank you so much!

As for what "Akatsuki Finale" means, I Googled it and it seems to mean "The end of the Moon". So it could either mean the whole expansion or just the finale. It's anyone's guess. Personally, I'd interpret it as the finale of the expansion, but I may be wrong.

I would be so SO happy if Zenos came back and became an antihero! I would cry tears of joy, literally. And I mean Zenos, not his body used by somebody else.

Oh, something else I started wondering about... How come the Japanese audiences seem to love Zenos but the Western audiences are so divided about him? Why this huge difference?

[YianKutku]

But can you tell me what Akatuski Finale means? Is that Endwalker as a whole, or the very last part of Endwalker? I really think he's hinting at Zenos being an antihero in 6.1+ here, so I am extremely hopeful!

"Akatsuki no Finale" (暁のフィナーレ) is just the Japanese title for Endwalker. "Akatsuki" means "dawn", like in "Scions of the Seventh Dawn".

It's also part of the "cycle of the day" theme that YoshiP has pointed out in the Fanfest and Live Letters: apart from ARR being simply "Eorzea Reborn", Heavensward was "Blue Skies of Ishgard" (representing daytime), Stormblood was "Crimson Liberators" (representing the red of sunset), Shadowbringers was "Jet Black Villains" (representing the black of night), and now Endwalker is "Finale of the Dawn" (representing the new day dawning).

[st0ut717]

No let that asshat stay dead. finally

[Aneshda]

Why do you think that Elidibus might bring Zenos back? Just curious to see your take on it, I love speculating.

In the present time, Elidibus is dead, right? So how could be bring back Zenos? And why?

As for the last cutscene at the end of the credits with Elidibus in Elpis, I took that to mean that we will have to travel in the past, meet Elidibus there (when he was still alive, in the Unsundered World) and begin the new raids with him by our side.

So how would this work, in your opinion?

Elidibus said in the end of the Credits, this Place never change. We woke him up in the present and i am sure he went from that back to the past. Or how would he know us in the past? I think that Elidibus cares / sees it as his Duty to care about those who he gave a second chance. Fandaniel (Amon), was someone like that. Even after Emet-Selch gave Amon the Seat of Fandaniel, Elidibus cared about him, we don't know why. And i think since he gave Zenos a second chance, he will take care of him again. Maybe just for Emet Selch since it is family.