Can we stop punishing shield healers for playing together?

[IceBlueNinja]

Honestly, my only wish is for them to fix the shield priority system to alleviate this double barrier nuances. Please don't allow weaker shield to overwrite stronger shield under ANY circumstances. I'm not saying they really NEED their shield that badly. It's just annoying to have prep'ed a very solid setup to spread a critical adloquium but then you have that E.Prognosis trigger happy SGE overwriting it with their paper thin barriers.

Part of me wants to think that they purposely made it this way to ensure the less geared healers won't feel 'useless' when they are paired with better geared players for seeing their shields 100% of time not registering or getting overwritten by their better co-healer.




Not in my gameplay. Both still generate around the same amount of shield, varying ever so slightly thanks to low/high rolls.

The only way for SGE's Crit E.Diag barrier to generate larger shield than Critlo's is from getting a critical cast on top of having Zoe active.

To generate thickest shield on SCH: Fey Illumination(1.1), Dissipation(1.2), Protraction(1.1), and Recitation(1.6) stacked together into a single Adlo cast = 1,255.5*2 of shield potency separate into Catalyze and Galvanize portions. While weaker, SCHs have the mean to spread that generated shield, temporarily bolstering eHP, partywide. In addition to having Recitation on their disposal, they can always guarantee that critical bonus should they wish to.

Meanwhile as a SGE they have to: Physis II (1.1), Zoe(1.5), & Krasis(1.2) stacked together into a single CRITICAL(1.6) E.Diagnosis cast = 1,710.7*2 of shield potency separated into Eukrasian Diagnosis and Differential Diagnosis portions. In the end although they do come out with more barrier potency on a single target, they do not possess any mean to manipulate said shield. Not even Zoe'd E.Prognosis can surpass SCH's Critlo spread potency. And above all? Goodluck trying to fish for that unreliable critical procs. Besides, Zoe synergies way better for Pneuma usage than anything else in their arsenals in lv90 content.

yeah and I think its cause we have pani and hami that does nice migi + burst heal for any remaining stacks of shield and can stack with e prog/diag they didnt want sage too op why we didnt have an option to spread differential diag, else it probably let sch very inferior.

[ty_taurus]

Lol I get why your not understanding. ok when I say E diag crit am talking about the 2nd barrier we get call differential diagnosis which is the same potency as a crit alco if not bigger cause zoe/physis/krasis . I dont care if we cant spread e prog other wise sch be pointless because we have hanima and panima which not only does good migi but does burst heals if any stacks of the barrier is Left. So for balance purposes it kinda makes sense why they didnt allow a differential diagnosis to be spread and who knows maybe they may consider it in the future, imagine if we could spread differential diagnosis which also stacks with panima and haima sch really would be even worst off. So again that over rated recitate + aclo + dt thing is still time consuming because you got to cast alco after recite then use dt, mean while I prefer my instant shield casting.

Imagine if WHM had a spell that was instant cast, cost 0 MP, dealt 1000 potency damage, and healed the party for 1000 potency, applied a 500 potency HoT for 1 minute, and applied a shield worth 200% of the initial heal. Well that doesn't exist, much like the ability to spread Differential diagnosis. So yeah, Deployment Crit Adlo is still superior to Zoe + E. Prognosis.

A good SGE doesn't use barriers in 95% of circumstances regardless of whether they're paired with a SCH or not.

[Deceptus]

TLDR: Sage crits can be higher than Scholar's because a 50% Zoe Buffed heal can crit.

To generate thickest shield on SCH: Fey Illumination(1.1), Dissipation(1.2), Protraction(1.1), and Recitation(1.6) stacked together into a single Adlo cast = 1,255.5*2 of shield potency separate into Catalyze and Galvanize portions. While weaker, SCHs have the mean to spread that generated shield, temporarily bolstering eHP, partywide. In addition to having Recitation on their disposal, they can always guarantee that critical bonus should they wish to.

Couple points of contention:

1) I think your value for Crit is mistaken. Crit is 1.5 times normal, however AhkMourning puts it at 1.4, but it's definitely not the 1.6 value you have.

2) I think your baseline calculation for what exactly is Deployed is also flawed.

I.E:

(Assuming 1.5 crit multiplier) Adlo has a baseline potency of 300. A crit of that is a 450 Potency Galvanize based shield. Catalyze is based off of that crit, so 450 potency x a 1.8 modifier is an 810 potency Catalyze shield.

1260 baseline (450+ 450*1.8), no extra buff if Adlo Crits.
540 baseline (300 + 300*1.8), no extra buff on Adlo non Crit

Knowing that buffs are multiplicative instead of additive we get a buff value for all three (minus Recitation) of 1.452 (1.1 * 1.1 * 1.2).

Post buffs we have

300*1.452 = 435 for first heal, (435*1.8) = 783 for a total of 1218 potency for a non crit
450*1.452 = 653 for first heal, (653*1.8) = 1175 for a total of 1826 potency for a crit

The only thing Recitation does is make the above guaranteed 100%, but it's on a 90s CD.
However, Zoe essentially does the same thing by buffing the heal by 50%, which makes it the same as a Crit, but that higher base value can crit which is why a Zoe enabled crit goes for MUCH HIGHER. That's what fills up a tanks HP bar massively. You're essentially double critting.

All the baseline numbers stay the same because Adlo and E. Diag are the same values. 300 base, 1.8 multiplier.

However, Sage "Buffed multiplier (1.1 *1.5 * 1.2) is 1.98 as opposed to the SCH 1.452 and they don't have to lose the fairy to do it.

300 * 1.98 = 594 for the first heal, (594 * 1.8) = 1069 for a total of 1663.8 potency for a non crit.
450 * 198 = 891 for the first heal, (891 * 1.8) = 1603 for a total potency of 2495 potency for a crit.

SCHOLAR:

1218 potency for a non crit
1826 potency for a crit

SAGE:

1664 potency for a non crit.
2495 potency for a crit.

Then you add the 20% Maim and Mend bonus on top of that.

[IceBlueNinja]

Imagine if WHM had a spell that was instant cast, cost 0 MP, dealt 1000 potency damage, and healed the party for 1000 potency, applied a 500 potency HoT for 1 minute, and applied a shield worth 200% of the initial heal. Well that doesn't exist, much like the ability to spread Differential diagnosis. So yeah, Deployment Crit Adlo is still superior to Zoe + E. Prognosis.

A good SGE doesn't use barriers in 95% of circumstances regardless of whether they're paired with a SCH or not.

A person can play a job how they feel to and does not have to please entitled people. It is not about being a good or bad person at the job smh. You cant tell someone to use or not use something. pani and hani stacks with e prog or e diag and give a burst heal of any remain stack which makes it still better than the so call crit alco. Who complaints about free heals anyways? The burst heals from pan and hami can be a life saver if well timed.

Also a good sch will learn to shield and not wait until damage already happen which most of them tend to do.

Also finally Ill take instant shield casting vs time casting shields and have access to my skills and not be locked out of them for using a clunky pet. Ill go far to say i rather play clunky whm or take one as a co healer over sch cause if you cant tell I dont like sch period.

[ty_taurus]

A person can play a job how they feel to and does not have to please entitled people. It is not about being a good or bad person at the job smh. You cant tell someone to use or not use something. pani and hani stacks with e prog or e diag and give a burst heal of any remain stack which makes it still better than the so call crit alco. Who complaints about free heals anyways? The burst heals from pan and hami can be a life saver if well timed.

Also a good sch will learn to shield and not wait until damage already happen which most of them tend to do.

Also finally Ill take instant shield casting vs time casting shields and have access to my skills and not be locked out of them for using a clunky pet. Ill go far to say i rather play clunky whm or take one as a co healer over sch cause if you cant tell I dont like sch period.

Haima and Panhaima aren't a part of the discussion though as they have no bearing on E. Diagnosis or E. Prognosis. If they only worked on targets with E. Diag/E. Prog, that would be a different story, but they don't. You can still apply them after a SCH has used Deployment Crit Adlo if needed.

I'm not trying to say that everyone MUST perform optimally or not at all, but we're talking about whether or not something is a problem in regards to the lack of barrier stackability between Adloquium/Succor and E. Diagnosis/E. Prognosis, and my point is that it's not a problem because these barrier heals are largely irrelevant. What would be a problem would be if Biolysis and E. Dosis III didn't stack, because that would severely impact a very important part of SCH's and SGE's performance. But with barriers, you don't have to use them and realistically shouldn't need to especially in casual content. Any actual use of barriers is almost entirely superfluous and unnecessary, so you're not actually losing something if you and your cohealer are overwriting each others barriers--at least, not losing something as a result of that interaction. What is being lost is a result of poor decision-making on the part of the healers for using those heals in the first place, but even that doesn't really matter because optimization isn't a requirement.

And the thing is, if you're not interested in optimization, why does it matter anyway? Who cares whether or not the barriers stack if your goal is to just not care about performance and play the way you want? It's not going to kill your party and it's not going to force you to play your job any differently than you want to. Use your E. Prognosis anyway and ignore the lack of stackablility because it's not going to affect you regardless. If you care because you want perform better, then the answer is to stop using E. Prognosis outside of incredibly niche situations and let your SCH cohealer perform group barrier responsibilities if it's actually needed.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

snip:

Apologies, I assumed a x1.6 for it is a multiplier close to a healer’s BiS. But we can go with 1.5 & your calculations for now. They are still mostly on point though. I omitted the raw cure potencies and jank of multiplicative numbers because mobile posting is terrible, thus only included shield potency in my post.

In the end, I was just trying to convey that at its base, E.Diagnosis & Adloquium are just the same button with different paint. They are not general way superior or inferior to one another. You have a big shield that you can spread should you wish to or just let it be vs You have an even bigger shield that’s limited to only shielding 1 target. This is still not including other sort of real practice nuances like whether the cast is actually needed or just fluff, dissipation murders fairy, losing buffed Pneuma for Zoe’d inflexible barrier, etc.

I just failed to see how one could think E.Diagnosis could generate larger shield vs Adlo assuming both have 0 buff effects from any sources, is healing the same tank, and has exactly same healer gears.

EDIT: Also another point to add, the downside of Zoe vs Recitation is still of course, the critical shield bonus. Zoe does not guarantee Differential Diagnosis portion which would normally doubles the overall shield value like Recitation do. Which in turn makes Non-critical Zoe'd E.Diagnosis' overall shield still weaker than Recit-Adlo's.

[IceBlueNinja]

Haima and Panhaima aren't a part of the discussion though as they have no bearing on E. Diagnosis or E. Prognosis. If they only worked on targets with E. Diag/E. Prog, that would be a different story, but they don't. You can still apply them after a SCH has used Deployment Crit Adlo if needed.

I'm not trying to say that everyone MUST perform optimally or not at all, but we're talking about whether or not something is a problem in regards to the lack of barrier stackability between Adloquium/Succor and E. Diagnosis/E. Prognosis, and my point is that it's not a problem because these barrier heals are largely irrelevant. What would be a problem would be if Biolysis and E. Dosis III didn't stack, because that would severely impact a very important part of SCH's and SGE's performance. But with barriers, you don't have to use them and realistically shouldn't need to especially in casual content. Any actual use of barriers is almost entirely superfluous and unnecessary, so you're not actually losing something if you and your cohealer are overwriting each others barriers--at least, not losing something as a result of that interaction. What is being lost is a result of poor decision-making on the part of the healers for using those heals in the first place, but even that doesn't really matter because optimization isn't a requirement.

And the thing is, if you're not interested in optimization, why does it matter anyway? Who cares whether or not the barriers stack if your goal is to just not care about performance and play the way you want? It's not going to kill your party and it's not going to force you to play your job any differently than you want to. Use your E. Prognosis anyway and ignore the lack of stackablility because it's not going to affect you regardless. If you care because you want perform better, then the answer is to stop using E. Prognosis outside of incredibly niche situations and let your SCH cohealer perform group barrier responsibilities if it's actually needed.

I handle my healing well and have 0 complaints from anyone friends or even randoms never seem to complain about my healing play style. Also fyi I use E diag far more than E prog and barely use E prog or not at all because kera/ixo and physis is very busted and takes care of any damage easily , am just stating people over rate that deploy crit alco way too much than is necessary to E prog comparison overall single shield wise sage wins even if party shield wise sch wins. Big deal.

[ty_taurus]

I handle my healing well and have 0 complaints from anyone friends or even randoms never seem to complain about my healing play style. Also fyi I use E diag far more than E prog and barely use E prog or not at all because kera/ixo and physis is very busted and takes care of any damage easily , am just stating people over rate that deploy crit alco way too much than is necessary to E prog comparison overall single shield wise sage wins even if party shield wise sch wins. Big deal.

Cool, doesn't mean you're playing optimally. E. Diagnosis is one of SGE's most useless actions. The bar is really not high for being a competent healer in any content, and you can misuse unnecessary heals all day without really seeing repercussions. Could your performance be better? Absolutely. Does it need to be to do your job correctly? Not at all.

While we're on the topic of discussing anti-synergy between completely irrelevant actions, can we also talk about how bad it is that your co-healer's Repose as well as any caster DPS's Sleep can increase the enemy's resistance to your Repose as well?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

While we're on the topic of discussing anti-synergy between completely irrelevant actions, can we also talk about how bad it is that your co-healer's Repose as well as any caster DPS's Sleep can increase the enemy's resistance to your Repose as well?

I am more salty that we have to spend the same amount of time just to put 1 target to sleep vs an AoE sleep that the casters have. The 200 extra MP use isn’t even justifiable imho considering MP management is almost nadir to healer gameplay as of now. We can afford to have that instead of the casters (Yes… give it to us), but who are we to hope for nice things even for once? Such is the fate of 3rd rate citizen lol.

[IceBlueNinja]

Cool, doesn't mean you're playing optimally. E. Diagnosis is one of SGE's most useless actions. The bar is really not high for being a competent healer in any content, and you can misuse unnecessary heals all day without really seeing repercussions. Could your performance be better? Absolutely. Does it need to be to do your job correctly? Not at all.

While we're on the topic of discussing anti-synergy between completely irrelevant actions, can we also talk about how bad it is that your co-healer's Repose as well as any caster DPS's Sleep can increase the enemy's resistance to your Repose as well?

useless to you not to me i love seeing a big 0 on me or others which may even nullify knock backs or block some mechanics2. Judging someone for something they use just cause you dont like it does not entitle you to assume a person is bad or good.

Do what you want but just stop assuming things you know nothing about a person. You always have such a nasty attitude to anyone who dont see your way. Its not burger king.