[ENDWALKER SPOILER!] On Zenos

[Loggos]

Meteion did say that we just have to wish to see our friends and Dynamis would make that happen. For me it makes a bit more sense that after remembering our travel with them we just simply wished to go to them but could not get up. Thus Dynamis answered our wish by giving us our device back.

That's how interpreted it, as well. For me it was a contrast between the friendless, miserable Zenos on the one side who had nobody caring about him nor coming for him and your WoL on the right side who is saved (by who I interpreted as Meteion, but maybe it was also just our own wish that Dynamis reacted to) and returns to their loyal friends. While we disappear Zenos has to stay behind all alone and forgotten at the edge of space. For me that strong contrast felt more like a symbol of his (probably) final punishment and not his (first and) last act of respect for us.

[Illmaeran]

Their dinamic to me looks a lot like the relationship between Drizzt Do'Urden and Artemis Entreri

You and I are of like mind; I've been thinking this for a while now.

Unfortunately for Zenos, his writers didn't take him much past the initial concept/thesis statement of the character. In my eyes, he should have died in Stormblood when he offed himself. That was a clear and satisfying end to a character who had incorporated a powerful entity and failed to kill his foe.

If they had intended for him to be the WoL's Dark Reflection, he shouldn't have died after our first fight. He literally had a dragon god in him; have the guy grow a pair [of wings] and GTFO. Having him escape to fight another day rather than die and be clumsily resurrected would have been more satisfying, relatively speaking. From that point they should have started playing up the Emptiness, Despair, and Futility aspect of why he wanted to fight us more than "Me Hate-Love WOL, Must Fite!". Foreshadowing that theme at the end of SB or early in ShB would have made him a more interesting plot device than the one-trick pony he was in reality. Existential Crisis Zenos would have been much more preferable to Boredom Ennui Zenos and would have actually moved the themes of the following expansions forward.

We should have fought him when we returned to Garlemald. Now that we recognized Despair as the reason Blasphemies are "born", putting him down then and there before he could sow greater chaos and cause the creation of untold more Blasphemies was the perfect out for the character as we would have had a legitimate reason to put him down even if the character didn't want to give him the satisfaction. From that point forward, the Hermes+Meteion story would have kept the plot moving.

I'm looking forward to giving him the smack down and pray that he never shows himself again. He's served his purpose excessively and needs to be relegated to the annals of 2.0-6.0 history.

[Loggos]

Unfortunately for Zenos, his writers didn't take him much past the initial concept/thesis statement of the character. In my eyes, he should have died in Stormblood when he offed himself. That was a clear and satisfying end to a character who had incorporated a powerful entity and failed to kill his foe.

If they had intended for him to be the WoL's Dark Reflection, he shouldn't have died after our first fight. He literally had a dragon god in him; have the guy grow a pair [of wings] and GTFO. Having him escape to fight another day rather than die and be clumsily resurrected would have been more satisfying, relatively speaking. From that point they should have started playing up the Emptiness, Despair, and Futility aspect of why he wanted to fight us more than "Me Hate-Love WOL, Must Fite!". Foreshadowing that theme at the end of SB or early in ShB would have made him a more interesting plot device than the one-trick pony he was in reality. Existential Crisis Zenos would have been much more preferable to Boredom Ennui Zenos and would have actually moved the themes of the following expansions forward.

We should have fought him when we returned to Garlemald. Now that we recognized Despair as the reason Blasphemies are "born", putting him down then and there before he could sow greater chaos and cause the creation of untold more Blasphemies was the perfect out for the character as we would have had a legitimate reason to put him down even if the character didn't want to give him the satisfaction. From that point forward, the Hermes+Meteion story would have kept the plot moving.

I'm looking forward to giving him the smack down and pray that he never shows himself again. He's served his purpose excessively and needs to be relegated to the annals of 2.0-6.0 history.

I actually really agree with this. If they had done it like this his whole character might have made a lot more sense to me.

[MirronTulaxia]

I really don’t see the mirror to the WoL with Zenos. The WoL may enjoy combat to some extent but that’s a far cry from orchestrating mass destruction for the sake of one. And the WoL clearly enjoys non combat things as well, you’re able to be just as good at crafting and gathering as you are at combat. It just feels very… railroading, for no positive reason. And ends the big capstone on a negative note for me. Drop Zenos and frankly I probably would have no major issues with Endwalker, would resolve Asahi shoehorning himself into a poignant moment as well.

[Lyth]

Whenever Shinryu tries to hold a conversation, it reminds me of Bowser.

Overall, I like what they've done with Zenos. He's a grounding figure, being the only member of the cast actually capable of properly standing toe to toe against you. Everyone else is too busy venerating you. It's that same feeling that you get with Seifer in FF8. You probably won't ever come to an agreement on anything, but deep down there's an understanding. They should add him to everyone's friend list on completion of the MSQ as your 201st slot, with the caveat that you can't remove him.

'DO YOU WANT ZENOS TO JOIN THE PARTY?'
>>NO.
'ZENOS JOINS THE PARTY ANYWAYS!'

I'm sure that we haven't seen the last of him. He's probably busy working off his indentured servitude to Jammingway at the Last Dregs.

[Bhearil]

"Once the main problem is fixed the Wol wont have no reason to not fight him." im talking from Zenos pov, the Wol reaction can vary from "hell yeah, lets end this with a bang" to "dont care much about you but you are a danger to all".

In any case considering that Zenos helped the WoL on the final fight even if Zenos is a horrible person no one cant say the WoL owe him nothing.

The DRK quests show that the WoL has dark emotions within, the reason of that emotions is irrelevant. You can even see hints here and there that the WoL is VICIOUS when fighting (they are actually infamous for that) and even when holding back can be quite brutal (the leporits even mention that some are still sour of how needlessly hard you beat them up). On the DRK quest you get soaked with blood from head to toes so much that the merchant is scared and Fray mentions that you should wear the blood on your armor with pride. The bloodlust and the thrill of battle are some of the negative traits of the WoL but not the only ones. Im not Saying that DRK= Zenos because their ideals are completely different, but some of the dark parts of the WoL shown during the quests mirror Zeno's

The Shadow basically wants the WoL to be themselves not a hero, not a Scion, not the Eorzea's errand boy/girl. And if you notice, Zenos mentions specifically that mirroring the Shadow "Im not asking the hero, the hero just would go back to their friends and realm, but wouldnt YOU enjoy a final battle?". I consider that all the answers are canon and even a small part of the most goodiedo WoL would think about how much they would enjoyed that even if they refrain from doing so, and even the most bloodthirsy WoL could think "I think I had enough fights for today but you are too dangerous to live" even if they finally say "hell yeah, whats one more fight?"

People is focusing too much on how different the WoL and Zenos are instead of realizing that they disturbingly share some core traits. Heck Zenos can be considered a meta mirror of the hardcore raider players, always looking for a bigger fight, and having periods of apathy until they meet another worthy foe, which is something the WoL has as well even if its not the only part of their personality unlike Zenos.

About the teleport part I agree that is open to interpretation, could be Meteion lending us a hand, the Scions, Zenos or even another third party. What is mostly clear is that it was due to dynamis somewhat, but from whom no one but the writers truly know

[Loggos]

In any case considering that Zenos helped the WoL on the final fight even if Zenos is a horrible person no one cant say the WoL owe him nothing.

Spoiler curtain because long post again.

I'm not sure if I understand this part correctly but I read it as "We can't deny that we now owe Zenos because he helped us"?

In that case, my apologies but haaaaaard disagree.
At best I would see it as a first step of compensation for all the suffering and death he caused that he still needs to make up for before he can claim that we owe him even the slightest favour.
(I mean he doesn't even do this to repent for anything but just to get a shot at fighting us so he technically even fails at this first step.)

The DRK quests show that the WoL has dark emotions within, the reason of that emotions is irrelevant. You can even see hints here and there that the WoL is VICIOUS when fighting (they are actually infamous for that) and even when holding back can be quite brutal (the leporits even mention that some are still sour of how needlessly hard you beat them up). On the DRK quest you get soaked with blood from head to toes so much that the merchant is scared and Fray mentions that you should wear the blood on your armor with pride. The bloodlust and the thrill of battle are some of the negative traits of the WoL but not the only ones. Im not Saying that DRK= Zenos because their ideals are completely different, but some of the dark parts of the WoL shown during the quests mirror Zeno's

The Shadow basically wants the WoL to be themselves not a hero, not a Scion, not the Eorzea's errand boy/girl. And if you notice, Zenos mentions specifically that mirroring the Shadow "Im not asking the hero, the hero just would go back to their friends and realm, but wouldnt YOU enjoy a final battle?". I consider that all the answers are canon and even a small part of the most goodiedo WoL would think about how much they would enjoyed that even if they refrain from doing so, and even the most bloodthirsy WoL could think "I think I had enough fights for today but you are too dangerous to live" even if they finally say "hell yeah, whats one more fight?"

We will just have to agree to disagree on DRK then.

I interpret the theme of DRK completely differently. As I said, on the surface they might look similar but I simply disagree with the idea that the WoL having any kind of dark emotion is indicative of them objectively having to be a mirror of Zenos and that the reasons for those emotions are irrelevant.

Again, I cannot emphasise enough that what I'm arguing against is the idea that Zenos is objectively the mirror to The WoL. Not that players can't see Zenos as the mirror to their own WoL.

And if a player sees their DRK like that, power to them. I won't stand in their way.
But my perception of this job is different.

In my eyes, Zenos has very specific dark emotions and he has a very specific view on the topic of battle.
As stated above, I agree that the way dark knights fight is a lot gorier and bloodier than others but I think it does make a big difference how this comes about, esp. if one remembers the theme of the abyss which clearly indicates that an obsession with battle and wrath is not the path of the DRK. The idea is that despite all the insanity and cruelty and wrath you feel you still need to ultimately be reasonable and retain a clear mind. To me that is the total anti-thesis to Zenos.

Zenos demands of you to be open to your alleged lust for battle, indicating that if you just let go, your passion for battle would run wild, even if it's just a part of you. But ironically by entering the abyss DRK are completely opening themselves up to their darkness because they have to truly face it to control it and not to be controlled. They face it precisely to reach this clear state of mind. That's how I understand the message of Sidurgu's master.


And as for the first DRK quest I would also argue that it goes beyond just being yourself. The quest very explicitly addresses the pain you feel (remember those cutscenes with the unidentifiable voice that is in despair, which turns out to be your own) as a result of your heroic role. It's not just about who you want to be as a person but that your role damages you. That you are breaking down from all the psychological damage it causes and that you are supressing. Your shadow gets angry because it tries to tell you that you cannot save everyone, yet in your related job quests you run off to help people even in the most ridiculous situations.

For this reason Zenos' question doesn't compare at all to what your shadow demands of you, in my eyes.


It is also only his assumption that it is the hero who would go back to their friends but the real you would enjoy the battle. Some may feel that way. And that is completely fair.

But others may also want to go back to their friends not as a hero, but as the individual person they are.

People is focusing too much on how different the WoL and Zenos are instead of realizing that they disturbingly share some core traits.

Again, that is your interpretation of your WoL. And that is perfectly fine. What I'm arguing against is that this mirror should be an objective analogy that works for all blank-slate characters. People focus so much on this difference because Zenos is simply not that mirror for them.
Maybe another character would be that mirror. But Zenos cannot fulfill this role for everyone.

Hence, why I'm emphasising the element of choice so much.
Let people choose to fight Zenos.


What is missing here, too, is that this is not only about the affinity for battle, but also a whole lot about Zenos himself. Like I said, I headcanon my WoL to enjoy battle and I'm sure many others do too but I see absolutely nothing in him that resembles my WoL, and that makes me feel like Zenos is even worth my time.
I'd have a very, very easy time saying "Nope, bye.", teleport back while leaving him at the edge if space and don't even give him that attention.

Even though I envision my character to enjoy fighting I also decided for her to have a completely different battle philosophy. Only because in the broadest sense both Zenos and I enjoy the concept of battle does not mean we enjoy the same things about it or have the same view on it.

Heck Zenos can be considered a meta mirror of the hardcore raider players, always looking for a bigger fight, and having periods of apathy until they meet another worthy foe, which is something the WoL has as well even if its not the only part of their personality unlike Zenos.

This argument itself shows how the mirror analogy is not objectively true for everyone.
Not everyone is a raider and even amongst raiders not everyone falls into a state of apathy when the battles are not challenging anymore because raiding is the only thing they like to do in this game.
That certainly applies to some and if they see themselves in Zenos then all the power to them. That's not what I'm arguing against.

But that clearly does not reflect the entire player base. So the idea that this mindset is part of the personality of The WoL is what I disagree with.
It is part of the personality of some WoL. Not all.

[Canadane]

I care not for what people think of the character himself, I'd just really enjoy a savage tier level difficulty version of that fight.
Give me a 1v1 that's almost unfair, potd style, to let me best him for realsies.

Could even be like a throwback to Maat from XI? Give me Zeno's Cap if I do it on all classes.
He wanted a challenge, now I do. Let me fight!

[GoldStarz]

Honestly, if they really wanted to make us fight Zenos, they should have made him turn into a blasphemy upon realizing that we aren't of the same mind of him, seeking out greater challenge for the sport of it, and that he was truly alone, trapped in boredom.

I would have been perfectly fine if they had just left him where they did in Garlemald because, as someone who finds Zenos just a completely tedious character, I thought they did a really good job with him up until the very end. If you really wanted to tie a bow on it, you could even just have him end up dying an anticlimax death in the cold from having no one to support him which would honestly fit way better with what they set up for him.

[Hayden]

I disagree, I liked that surprise and felt it was bitter sweet moment...and the fight was fun. Kinda like fighting another WOL one on one. Good send off, if anything for a Villian that didn't deserve such.

All things aside, what annoyed me was his character, not what they did with him.

if Fandaniel was trying to be Kefka, well...we all know who they tried to fashion Zenos to be....